964 Drivers on the Nurburgring (Touristenfahrten days)
01-07-2011, 09:33 AM
#1
964 Drivers on the Nurburgring (Touristenfahrten days)
For UK 964 drivers:
In the last few years UK insurers have started to wince at the thought of the Nurburgring and specifically Touristenfahrten days or TF days. These are when you go up to the barrier and pay €24 to do you best at beating Jeremy Clarkson. Vans, track cars, £400 Volvo and Bugatti Veyron could be out on track with you.
UK and EU laws requires you to have 3rd party cover for European driving from your insurance company, thats that sorted then, lets go to the Ring!
Er no…
The insurers and the underwriters can and have excluded the Ring in name or via “non restricted toll roads” wording. They have also won (two rulings from adjudicators at the Financial Ombudsman Service) on the subject and can declare the Ring a racetrack which they could not insure, or a specific piece of tarmac thats excluded from EU law.
Morris UK insurance company (along with a few others) will cover you, however this is 1st party insurance only and will not cover YOU hitting someone else but will only repair your car. This is the same as UK track day insurance where everyone just has 1st party cover (knock for knock policy), but as everyone else will have normal insurance on the Ring your cover will not return the cost of damage to other cars or people. It appears European countries do not make these limitations on the TF days at the Ring for there own citizens, only the good old UK has these strange policy requirements.
So lets work out how much this will be…
Base fee for attendance of armco truck: €150
Removing damaged armco: €10/metre (x2 or x3 or x4 for multiple-height sections)
Replacement armco: €31/metre (x2 or x3 for double/triple height)
Removing damaged armco posts: €5.10 each
Replacing armco post: €39 each
Safety car attendance: €82 per 30 mins (car + 2 people)
Recovery truck: €190 (inc VAT)
Hospital stay & air ambulance: Let's just say you need to have a deep wallet, also everything except the recovery truck is then subject to 19% VAT.
None of this takes into account the possibility of a GT3 RS and M3 also hitting the barrier due to dropped oil from your car, or because of your crash, or the biker that was airlifted to hospital from sliding on your oil or serving to avoid your crash. All will have to be paid for out of your pocket as you normal insurance won't cover it and neither will track day insurance.
These bills are life changing and may require you to pay up or fight a large UK insurer in court over an exclusion in your policy that you pleaded you weren’t aware of… Good luck with that!
Recently a GT3 turn in on a Nissan GTR into a left hander, the Nissan GTR was over taking on the left (correct German law) and got squeezed against the curb and went over that and the rough ground at speed. No contact took place but the GT3 driver is facing a £14,000 non contact bill for damage to the GTR.
The alternative is to do a closed private track day on the Ring. They require you to get additional insurance cover for a track day event. This is 1st party cover which will be fine because everyone else will have 1st party cover (knock for knock policy).
My advice is:
Ignorance is no excuse to plead to insurance companies
Contact them and ask if you are covered
if you here the bad news from your insurers, stick to private track days for safer controlled insured driving if you are from the UK. That way you can enjoy the track without any fear looming in the background.
I hope this helps
In the last few years UK insurers have started to wince at the thought of the Nurburgring and specifically Touristenfahrten days or TF days. These are when you go up to the barrier and pay €24 to do you best at beating Jeremy Clarkson. Vans, track cars, £400 Volvo and Bugatti Veyron could be out on track with you.
UK and EU laws requires you to have 3rd party cover for European driving from your insurance company, thats that sorted then, lets go to the Ring!
Er no…
The insurers and the underwriters can and have excluded the Ring in name or via “non restricted toll roads” wording. They have also won (two rulings from adjudicators at the Financial Ombudsman Service) on the subject and can declare the Ring a racetrack which they could not insure, or a specific piece of tarmac thats excluded from EU law.
Morris UK insurance company (along with a few others) will cover you, however this is 1st party insurance only and will not cover YOU hitting someone else but will only repair your car. This is the same as UK track day insurance where everyone just has 1st party cover (knock for knock policy), but as everyone else will have normal insurance on the Ring your cover will not return the cost of damage to other cars or people. It appears European countries do not make these limitations on the TF days at the Ring for there own citizens, only the good old UK has these strange policy requirements.
So lets work out how much this will be…
Base fee for attendance of armco truck: €150
Removing damaged armco: €10/metre (x2 or x3 or x4 for multiple-height sections)
Replacement armco: €31/metre (x2 or x3 for double/triple height)
Removing damaged armco posts: €5.10 each
Replacing armco post: €39 each
Safety car attendance: €82 per 30 mins (car + 2 people)
Recovery truck: €190 (inc VAT)
Hospital stay & air ambulance: Let's just say you need to have a deep wallet, also everything except the recovery truck is then subject to 19% VAT.
None of this takes into account the possibility of a GT3 RS and M3 also hitting the barrier due to dropped oil from your car, or because of your crash, or the biker that was airlifted to hospital from sliding on your oil or serving to avoid your crash. All will have to be paid for out of your pocket as you normal insurance won't cover it and neither will track day insurance.
These bills are life changing and may require you to pay up or fight a large UK insurer in court over an exclusion in your policy that you pleaded you weren’t aware of… Good luck with that!
Recently a GT3 turn in on a Nissan GTR into a left hander, the Nissan GTR was over taking on the left (correct German law) and got squeezed against the curb and went over that and the rough ground at speed. No contact took place but the GT3 driver is facing a £14,000 non contact bill for damage to the GTR.
The alternative is to do a closed private track day on the Ring. They require you to get additional insurance cover for a track day event. This is 1st party cover which will be fine because everyone else will have 1st party cover (knock for knock policy).
My advice is:
Ignorance is no excuse to plead to insurance companies
Contact them and ask if you are covered
if you here the bad news from your insurers, stick to private track days for safer controlled insured driving if you are from the UK. That way you can enjoy the track without any fear looming in the background.
I hope this helps
Last edited by Unkle; 01-31-2011 at 04:40 AM.
01-11-2011, 06:27 PM
#2
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Great advice and fantastic write-up.
I'm looking forward to going this year, so I hope to come up with a solution that allows safe use of my car... failing that I'm stuck in my German friend's 997 2s
I'm looking forward to going this year, so I hope to come up with a solution that allows safe use of my car... failing that I'm stuck in my German friend's 997 2s
01-12-2011, 04:12 AM
#4
Destination Nurburgring will offer their own "DN" days, and these will be announced shortly. They will be full track, no barriers and Track day insurance will apply. (So ok for UK uses) it will be a track day "open pitlane" and the full day is closed to the people that apply and pay the €300 - €500.
I have contacted Darren at DN and will post up dates when they become available.
http://www.destination-nurburgring.com/trackday
I have contacted Darren at DN and will post up dates when they become available.
http://www.destination-nurburgring.com/trackday
01-12-2011, 04:28 AM
#5
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These are when you go up to the barrier and pay €24 to do you best at beating Jeremy Clarkson. Vans, track cars, £400 volvos’ and Bugatti Veyrons could be out on track with you.
Due to the insurance issues raised by Unkle I would not consider taking my own car on a tourist day. I think the only way to go is to use one of the ring rental firms. A group of us used these guys before and I can highly recommmend them:
http://rentracecar.de/english/index.htm
The cost is actually pretty reasonable if you are sharing the car.
01-12-2011, 06:10 AM
#6
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Third and first party insurance is available for UK Porsche drivers from various brokers.
Unfortunately, Unkle has made several inaccurate comments in the original post. There is no UK test case and its ridiculous to suggest EU law doesn't apply to the 'ring.
For the facts see <link removed>
Unfortunately, Unkle has made several inaccurate comments in the original post. There is no UK test case and its ridiculous to suggest EU law doesn't apply to the 'ring.
For the facts see <link removed>
Last edited by Marc Shaw; 01-22-2011 at 12:36 AM. Reason: link removed - advertising by a non-sponsor
01-12-2011, 06:34 AM
#7
Hi AGT
I knew you would pop in, is that a link to your own business?
I was orignally referring to your excellent thread on the subject and used the term "test case" for want of abbreviation for my help, clearly incorrectly my bad.
Do you have a list of insurers that will cover UK drivers to assist rennlist members? Your professional help would really assist us
Some of your useful information has been posted here.
in the instant case we had two rulings from adjudicators at the Financial Ombudsman Service. then an "appeal" to the Ombudsman. this process took 23 months from day of incident.
the insurer paid the third party costs. as they must. its a public road in the EU; despite what is said on pistonheads.
No mention of Nurburgring or Nordschleife in the policy. page 54 exclusions: "we will not cover use ... in a rally, in a competition, in a motor trial, on a racetrack, on a circuit or on a prepared course." ombudsman says nordschleife is a prepared course and therefore excluded.
so, the insurer might try to recover the 3rd party payment from the insured. We could defend this in the High Court. the right to recovery has been recently been ventilated in the Court of Appeal but has been referred to the European Court. case pending.
I knew you would pop in, is that a link to your own business?
I was orignally referring to your excellent thread on the subject and used the term "test case" for want of abbreviation for my help, clearly incorrectly my bad.
Do you have a list of insurers that will cover UK drivers to assist rennlist members? Your professional help would really assist us
Some of your useful information has been posted here.
in the instant case we had two rulings from adjudicators at the Financial Ombudsman Service. then an "appeal" to the Ombudsman. this process took 23 months from day of incident.
the insurer paid the third party costs. as they must. its a public road in the EU; despite what is said on pistonheads.
No mention of Nurburgring or Nordschleife in the policy. page 54 exclusions: "we will not cover use ... in a rally, in a competition, in a motor trial, on a racetrack, on a circuit or on a prepared course." ombudsman says nordschleife is a prepared course and therefore excluded.
so, the insurer might try to recover the 3rd party payment from the insured. We could defend this in the High Court. the right to recovery has been recently been ventilated in the Court of Appeal but has been referred to the European Court. case pending.
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01-12-2011, 07:05 AM
#8
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Brief summary of the insurance position regarding tourist driving at the Nurburgring.
- German road traffic law and the circuit's 'General Conditions' require third party insurance as a minimum.
- UK and European law requires your insurer to cover you third party only anywhere in the EU where that is a legal requirement.
- Your insurance contract may contain a clause allowing the insurer a right to recover claims it's required to pay by law.
- Insurers may rely on the aforementioned to sue you to recover a claim they pay.
The insurer may have a reasonable case to recover if it has specifically excluded the particular circuit, or used the phrase 'prepared course' or similar.
In basic terms, every UK driver is legally covered third party only; but you may be personally liable to pay any claim settled by your insurer. This is not a very satisfactory state of affairs and in the absence of a test case every individual case is dealt with on its own merits.
My advice is to seek out insurance from a specialist broker (e.g. Manning) or rent a car locally.
- German road traffic law and the circuit's 'General Conditions' require third party insurance as a minimum.
- UK and European law requires your insurer to cover you third party only anywhere in the EU where that is a legal requirement.
- Your insurance contract may contain a clause allowing the insurer a right to recover claims it's required to pay by law.
- Insurers may rely on the aforementioned to sue you to recover a claim they pay.
The insurer may have a reasonable case to recover if it has specifically excluded the particular circuit, or used the phrase 'prepared course' or similar.
In basic terms, every UK driver is legally covered third party only; but you may be personally liable to pay any claim settled by your insurer. This is not a very satisfactory state of affairs and in the absence of a test case every individual case is dealt with on its own merits.
My advice is to seek out insurance from a specialist broker (e.g. Manning) or rent a car locally.
01-12-2011, 07:46 AM
#9
Thanks for the clarification AGT 
So we are insured but they may come and get the money back? Meaning the insured part could be worthless in some cases?
As you and Jamest says, a rental is very good option. if your insurer won't cover.
So we are insured but they may come and get the money back? Meaning the insured part could be worthless in some cases?
As you and Jamest says, a rental is very good option. if your insurer won't cover.
Last edited by Unkle; 01-12-2011 at 08:43 AM.
01-12-2011, 05:24 PM
#10
Rennlist Member
The roads around the Ring are some of the best I have ever driven. So to drive their for a VLN Race and soak up the atmosphere, stay at Tiergarten (Schmidt Family Hotel) and tour around the roads is a great 'insured alternative' mini break.
I go there regularly and a lot of guys drive out there and don't go out on the Ring, but its still a blast!
I go there regularly and a lot of guys drive out there and don't go out on the Ring, but its still a blast!
01-13-2011, 03:00 PM
#11
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Have been on a DN track day and cannot fault them. Absolutely fantastic. And you get to use the stadium section. Well worth the money in my opinion! Beats the Tourist days hands down!
Martin
www.964rsdatabase.com
Martin
www.964rsdatabase.com
01-21-2011, 01:02 PM
#12
Nordschleife Master
This looks to be an excellent instructional video of how to drive it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqt8TioEDc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lqt8TioEDc
01-27-2011, 04:39 AM
#14
Great Video Boxsey
Returning to this thread.
Lots of problems with UK insurers as many are still finding in the UK, and whether anyone really wants to take it further i.e. to court. As explained by myself and others you should/could be covered, but try asking you insurer or underwriter if you are, i have never found one that says yes in the last 12 months (but see below), and then they may come and get the money back. So are you covered at all in layman's terms? I wouldn't want to bet a car crash and bill on it.
Manning will cover 3rd party only so at least you don't pay for the other costs, but as normal your own car will be your responsibility. As Barty964rs says the roads are great in the region really nice to drive, but you wouldn't just want to drive to one of the best tracks in Europe to look through the fence.
If I find any others I will post them up
964 Cup race in 2010 on the Ring
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlOGb...eature=related
Returning to this thread.
Lots of problems with UK insurers as many are still finding in the UK, and whether anyone really wants to take it further i.e. to court. As explained by myself and others you should/could be covered, but try asking you insurer or underwriter if you are, i have never found one that says yes in the last 12 months (but see below), and then they may come and get the money back. So are you covered at all in layman's terms? I wouldn't want to bet a car crash and bill on it.
Manning will cover 3rd party only so at least you don't pay for the other costs, but as normal your own car will be your responsibility. As Barty964rs says the roads are great in the region really nice to drive, but you wouldn't just want to drive to one of the best tracks in Europe to look through the fence.
If I find any others I will post them up
964 Cup race in 2010 on the Ring
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlOGb...eature=related
Last edited by Unkle; 01-31-2011 at 04:35 AM.
02-10-2011, 04:08 PM
#15
Just been reading on another forum that Manning have pulled the ring cover. If anyone can clarify that would be good.
If you are looking to enjoy track days in Europe (i am) Lotus on Track seem to have a comprehensive selection of European tracks to choose from , from Le mans Bugatti to Zolder.
lotus-on-track.com/
If you are looking to enjoy track days in Europe (i am) Lotus on Track seem to have a comprehensive selection of European tracks to choose from , from Le mans Bugatti to Zolder.
lotus-on-track.com/