Hardest decision ever 964 v 996.
10-05-2010, 08:27 PM
#46
Drifting
I have both 996 and 964, you can use either as DD if wanted. It depends on what you are looking for in a DD (reliable heat, A/C, etc.).
Personal preference, but I think the 964 is one of the most undervalued 911's out there. They have the classic look but the modern powertrain. The motor and transmission are awesome in the 964.
Personal preference, but I think the 964 is one of the most undervalued 911's out there. They have the classic look but the modern powertrain. The motor and transmission are awesome in the 964.
10-05-2010, 09:51 PM
#47
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I can't say which i'd pick as a DD as i've never owned a 996 although i have driven one and echo the comments made previously. But I'm on my second 964 C4 that I use as a DD - even in the winter. However, I do have a backup car - an Alfa Romeo (i never said i was smart, just passionate about cars).
I have to say both of my C4's have been extremely reliable - especially for 20 year old cars; Can't say the same about my Alfa!
I have to say both of my C4's have been extremely reliable - especially for 20 year old cars; Can't say the same about my Alfa!
10-05-2010, 10:17 PM
#48
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...964 - do all the work you need to do before you buy, get a good ppi, validate the history records, test drive etc. You can get a great car and expect that you will have repairs and will perform preventative maintenance like any other car. From what I've read in the p mags lately the 964 is gaining value, interest, and is the best of classic design and modern features. I looked at the 996 when I was buying, but couldn't get over the egg headlights, overall look and what appeared to be more mechanical issues upon reviewing feedback. Overall the 964 is great value.
10-05-2010, 10:51 PM
#49
I wrestled over this for about two years actually before I got my current C4 964. Test drove a few 996s. I still feel that the 993s are overvalued for what they are, so didn't really consider them. I would go through cycles of obsessing over 996s, going out for a test drive, then going to rennlist to get a reality check and seeing the multitude of engine failure threads (and not just "sky is falling" my brother's father's sister's friend stories but first hand horrible accounts), I would always decide against venturing into the porsche world. That is until I discovered the existence of the 964.
The older 911s had never really attracted me much, but the more I read about the 964, the more I liked about it. Bulletproof engine and trans when well maintained. Earlier engines are a leak prone, but most cars on the road today have whatever major cylinder head leakage issues taken care of. Looks wise they are to me a perfect mix of the classic 911 form with modern amenities like AC and power steering. I daily drive my 964 without issues and it thrills me every time I get into the somber black (very german) cabin with the large airplane like gauges. The first thing that struck me when I test drove my 964 (the only one I could find in the area at the time!) was how loud it is - burbles like a muscle car. It is so connected to the road - and not in a brittle rough riding kind of way, it communicates without jarring the hell out of me. When I over-weight the outside front tire in a corner, I know it in as natural a way as knowing my body is off balance.
I feel like the 964 is an enthusiast's car, whereas the 996 is more mass market. It doesn't feel as special. Yes it's fast and a bit more comfortable and honestly likely a better car in many ways to the 964 - it simply in the end came down to which one stirred me more. Everytime I pin the tach near redline and hear the roar of the air cooled flat six, I smile or crack up by how amazing it sounds. I have connected with this car in a few months in a way I never connected with other faster cars I've owned.
The fact that it's pretty much hit the bottom of depreciation also helps
The older 911s had never really attracted me much, but the more I read about the 964, the more I liked about it. Bulletproof engine and trans when well maintained. Earlier engines are a leak prone, but most cars on the road today have whatever major cylinder head leakage issues taken care of. Looks wise they are to me a perfect mix of the classic 911 form with modern amenities like AC and power steering. I daily drive my 964 without issues and it thrills me every time I get into the somber black (very german) cabin with the large airplane like gauges. The first thing that struck me when I test drove my 964 (the only one I could find in the area at the time!) was how loud it is - burbles like a muscle car. It is so connected to the road - and not in a brittle rough riding kind of way, it communicates without jarring the hell out of me. When I over-weight the outside front tire in a corner, I know it in as natural a way as knowing my body is off balance.
I feel like the 964 is an enthusiast's car, whereas the 996 is more mass market. It doesn't feel as special. Yes it's fast and a bit more comfortable and honestly likely a better car in many ways to the 964 - it simply in the end came down to which one stirred me more. Everytime I pin the tach near redline and hear the roar of the air cooled flat six, I smile or crack up by how amazing it sounds. I have connected with this car in a few months in a way I never connected with other faster cars I've owned.
The fact that it's pretty much hit the bottom of depreciation also helps
I am now on my second C4 and went through the same debate.
I use my C4 like my last, everyday. I have never had a problem, it's been a true love story for me. But the best part of a 964, is the way it makes you feel.
There's just nothing like it, it's the best car Porsche ever made. In my opinion you buy a Porsche for the way it makes you feel, that is the priority the rest is wonderful memories.
One day I'll buy a 964 Turbo 3.6s... dream
...but my C4 will be my DD
10-05-2010, 11:15 PM
#50
Racer
Thread Starter
Brilliant piece of writing
I am now on my second C4 and went through the same debate.
I use my C4 like my last, everyday. I have never had a problem, it's been a true love story for me. But the best part of a 964, is the way it makes you feel.
There's just nothing like it, it's the best car Porsche ever made. In my opinion you buy a Porsche for the way it makes you feel, that is the priority the rest is wonderful memories.
One day I'll buy a 964 Turbo 3.6s... dream ...but my C4 will be my DD
I am now on my second C4 and went through the same debate.
I use my C4 like my last, everyday. I have never had a problem, it's been a true love story for me. But the best part of a 964, is the way it makes you feel.
There's just nothing like it, it's the best car Porsche ever made. In my opinion you buy a Porsche for the way it makes you feel, that is the priority the rest is wonderful memories.
One day I'll buy a 964 Turbo 3.6s... dream
...but my C4 will be my DD
10-05-2010, 11:25 PM
#51
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I had the same dilemma. Ultimately I chose the 996, not a totally fair comparison since I purchased the turbo but I feel your pain.
I still look out the window at my buddies 964 and wonder with a hint of doubt whether I should have gone that route ...
The only way you are going to decide this is to drive both cars and make a decision based on your personal preference.
I still look out the window at my buddies 964 and wonder with a hint of doubt whether I should have gone that route ...
The only way you are going to decide this is to drive both cars and make a decision based on your personal preference.
Last edited by Durango Kid; 10-05-2010 at 11:29 PM. Reason: Answered own question
10-06-2010, 04:55 AM
#52
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OK... this is an opinion thread, so here's mine:
I spent 6 years with the M96 motor in a Boxster, though I had plenty of seat time in the 996, on and off the track. Never had a castastrophe, but felt like I was under the 'Sword of Damacles' most of the time.
These motors have serious design defficiencies from AOS, RMS, IMS to leaky sparkplug tubes, weak waterpumps, poor alternators, bad lifters and poor chain tensioners.
So much so, that guys like Charles Navarro (LN Engineering) and Jake Raby (Flat 6 Innovations) have made businesses out of correcting these defficiencies. One of them was quoted as saying: "It's not if your M96 will grenade, it's more a matter of when and how... These are disposable motors..."
For the longest time, Porsche, or the Dealers, weren't even repairing the M96 motors, just replacing them to the tune of $10k-$26k. Imagine owning a $20k 996 and having to replace the engine for $26k.
The 996/986s and 997/987s are truly mass produced and it shows in the build quality and materials. There is a reason a 996 can be had for less than a 964, and it's not a good one.
All these series insulate the driver tremendously, especially the e-gas motors and PSM (aka Please Save Me). They are not nearly so vicscerous as the 964 or 993.
But maybe the biggest turn-off for me after poor engine design is the fact that a 996 is fully 25% bigger than the 964 - it's a really big car and feels all of it. It's not nimble and sleek, it feels like it's lumbering along.
I went into the Boxster after 8 years in a Lotus Turbo Esprit. The Esprit was rock solid reliable, 800lbs. lighter, and maybe the most visceral car I've ever owned. Except for being able to drop the top, the Esprit was much more a driver's car.
My 964 is much closer to what a Porsche is supposed to be, and closer to the Esprit. I'd never go back to the later models.
Besides, they're all going to be shared VW/Audi platforms in the near future anyway.
Cheers!
I spent 6 years with the M96 motor in a Boxster, though I had plenty of seat time in the 996, on and off the track. Never had a castastrophe, but felt like I was under the 'Sword of Damacles' most of the time.
These motors have serious design defficiencies from AOS, RMS, IMS to leaky sparkplug tubes, weak waterpumps, poor alternators, bad lifters and poor chain tensioners.
So much so, that guys like Charles Navarro (LN Engineering) and Jake Raby (Flat 6 Innovations) have made businesses out of correcting these defficiencies. One of them was quoted as saying: "It's not if your M96 will grenade, it's more a matter of when and how... These are disposable motors..."
For the longest time, Porsche, or the Dealers, weren't even repairing the M96 motors, just replacing them to the tune of $10k-$26k. Imagine owning a $20k 996 and having to replace the engine for $26k.
The 996/986s and 997/987s are truly mass produced and it shows in the build quality and materials. There is a reason a 996 can be had for less than a 964, and it's not a good one.
All these series insulate the driver tremendously, especially the e-gas motors and PSM (aka Please Save Me). They are not nearly so vicscerous as the 964 or 993.
But maybe the biggest turn-off for me after poor engine design is the fact that a 996 is fully 25% bigger than the 964 - it's a really big car and feels all of it. It's not nimble and sleek, it feels like it's lumbering along.
I went into the Boxster after 8 years in a Lotus Turbo Esprit. The Esprit was rock solid reliable, 800lbs. lighter, and maybe the most visceral car I've ever owned. Except for being able to drop the top, the Esprit was much more a driver's car.
My 964 is much closer to what a Porsche is supposed to be, and closer to the Esprit. I'd never go back to the later models.
Besides, they're all going to be shared VW/Audi platforms in the near future anyway.
Cheers!
10-06-2010, 05:34 AM
#53
Racer
just drove a 996 Millennium for a day, and its a total different beast !! compared to my 964..
its luxurious and soft and above all... the sound of silence !
But for a driver, the aircooled P's are just great !
What would you like to fly ... a P51 or a Citation ? I rest my case
its luxurious and soft and above all... the sound of silence !
But for a driver, the aircooled P's are just great !
What would you like to fly ... a P51 or a Citation ? I rest my case
Last edited by rarebear; 11-03-2010 at 03:35 PM.
10-06-2010, 10:25 AM
#54
I drove from London to the South of France and into Italy covering 2,500 Miles. The seats were never uncomfortable, I stopped every 2-4hrs for a 10 min break because of tiredness way before my bum got numb... of course sitting anywhere without moving for over 4hrs a bum would get numb!
...Might I add this was via the 'Col de Tourini' featured on Top Gear 'The best driving roads in the world'...
I now absolutely know what I and my car are capable off... I now truly appreciate the immense engineering that went into my 964.
This section of road that's part of the Monte Carlo Rally with over 80 Hair pins, well there was a 996 behind me c2, in corners he was trailing... overall he trailed... its not as nimble... no way
Iv'e never experienced anything like this road, The 'Evo Triangle' is great but not jaw dropping like this was. I'm going to probably start a debate now, i think in the real world on roads like this/ off a track a 964 C4 is better than a 964 C2... the power is accessible because of the grip... after all it's part of a rally stage
I wanna go back!!!!!! - (in a 964 3.6s Turbo
10-06-2010, 04:13 PM
#56
Rennlist Member
Since the OP has his age listed as 17, I vote for a beater Honda for DD duties. Get some miles under your belt, learn how to drive in all weather conditions, attend some PCA events, and make friends with owners of the cars you're interested in- then ask them to take you for a ride. Also consider a performance driving school. Once you've had some exposure to the various options, get the one you want, regardless of what folks on the internet say! However, keep the beater, because it's always good to have a second vehicle for the times when the pcar needs repair...
10-06-2010, 04:14 PM
#57
Racer
Thread Starter
They are Porsche seats, they will always be very comfortable.
I drove from London to the South of France and into Italy covering 2,500 Miles. The seats were never uncomfortable, I stopped every 2-4hrs for a 10 min break because of tiredness way before my bum got numb... of course sitting anywhere without moving for over 4hrs a bum would get numb!
...Might I add this was via the 'Col de Tourini' featured on Top Gear 'The best driving roads in the world'...
I now absolutely know what I and my car are capable off... I now truly appreciate the immense engineering that went into my 964.
This section of road that's part of the Monte Carlo Rally with over 80 Hair pins, well there was a 996 behind me c2, in corners he was trailing... overall he trailed... its not as nimble... no way
Iv'e never experienced anything like this road, The 'Evo Triangle' is great but not jaw dropping like this was. I'm going to probably start a debate now, i think in the real world on roads like this/ off a track a 964 C4 is better than a 964 C2... the power is accessible because of the grip... after all it's part of a rally stage
I wanna go back!!!!!! - (in a 964 3.6s Turbo
I drove from London to the South of France and into Italy covering 2,500 Miles. The seats were never uncomfortable, I stopped every 2-4hrs for a 10 min break because of tiredness way before my bum got numb... of course sitting anywhere without moving for over 4hrs a bum would get numb!
...Might I add this was via the 'Col de Tourini' featured on Top Gear 'The best driving roads in the world'...
I now absolutely know what I and my car are capable off... I now truly appreciate the immense engineering that went into my 964.
This section of road that's part of the Monte Carlo Rally with over 80 Hair pins, well there was a 996 behind me c2, in corners he was trailing... overall he trailed... its not as nimble... no way
Iv'e never experienced anything like this road, The 'Evo Triangle' is great but not jaw dropping like this was. I'm going to probably start a debate now, i think in the real world on roads like this/ off a track a 964 C4 is better than a 964 C2... the power is accessible because of the grip... after all it's part of a rally stage
I wanna go back!!!!!! - (in a 964 3.6s Turbo
10-06-2010, 06:50 PM
#58
Nordschleife Master
Iv'e never experienced anything like this road, The 'Evo Triangle' is great but not jaw dropping like this was. I'm going to probably start a debate now, i think in the real world on roads like this/ off a track a 964 C4 is better than a 964 C2... the power is accessible because of the grip... after all it's part of a rally stage
I wanna go back!!!!!! - (in a 964 3.6s Turbo
10-06-2010, 07:22 PM
#59
On the track, yes hands down 2WD. In the real world and on the twisty mountain pass that is the 'Col de Tourini' with some very steep gradients, loose gravel etc, etc no way.
...mind you I am very open to having my mind changed, hence I would love to do it in a 2WD 964 to compare for sure... has anyone done the 'Col de Tourini' in a 2WD 964?
I'd be so curious to know what it's like... i genuinely feel this section of road may well be the best territory/ testing ground for the 964...
I absolutely recommend anyone who has the possibility of driving this road in a 964, do it! It's a memory to cherish forever.
Can anyone tell that I'm passionate?
10-06-2010, 07:53 PM
#60
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Since the OP has his age listed as 17, I vote for a beater Honda for DD duties. Get some miles under your belt, learn how to drive in all weather conditions, attend some PCA events, and make friends with owners of the cars you're interested in- then ask them to take you for a ride. Also consider a performance driving school. Once you've had some exposure to the various options, get the one you want, regardless of what folks on the internet say! However, keep the beater, because it's always good to have a second vehicle for the times when the pcar needs repair...
I thought I was a bit reckless when I purchased a 911SC at the age of 22....and that's even knowing my dad was a former Porsche mechanic, had a garage full of tools, and I was really mature at the time.
I would personally get a few more years of driving under your belt before buying a 911.