Hardest decision ever 964 v 996.
10-05-2010, 03:23 PM
#32
Nordschleife Master
You feeling naturally cantankerous today, or just sniffin' for a rise?
On topic: Porsche water pumpers don't have the best track record, depreciation-wise.
The current crop doesn't dissuade my perspective, there. (Though all Porsches are $20-25k cars, min.)
Remember the 924, 944, 928 as you go down that 996 road.
10-05-2010, 03:30 PM
#33
Rennlist Member
Jim, baiting like that is bound to bring in Ilko (mister 4S)
You feeling naturally cantankerous today, or just sniffin' for a rise?
On topic: Porsche water pumpers don't have the best track record, depreciation-wise.
The current crop doesn't dissuade my perspective, there.
Remember the 924, 944, 928 as you go down that 996 road.
You feeling naturally cantankerous today, or just sniffin' for a rise?
On topic: Porsche water pumpers don't have the best track record, depreciation-wise.
The current crop doesn't dissuade my perspective, there.
Remember the 924, 944, 928 as you go down that 996 road.
Not that the 996 is a bad car just overproduced and lacking the excitement of the older Porsche's. Very capable cars but so are the boxsters and cayman's. Still not very exciting and way to easy to drive fast.
10-05-2010, 03:57 PM
#34
The subject by the OP is not depreciation, or water cooled potential problems or GT3, but which to choose for a daily driver. I think Boxsey is right, that the DD should be the 996, but thats what I said so perhaps i'm biased... 
Last edited by Unkle; 10-05-2010 at 04:18 PM.
10-05-2010, 04:41 PM
#36
Rennlist Member
10-05-2010, 04:44 PM
#37
Burgled
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
I imagine there will be a thread over there soon talking about how a 964 guy dared talk down about our cars. Every body knows they are a collector car after all 
By the way I am going to be up at the bay this weekend. Come on over to the island!
10-05-2010, 05:09 PM
#39
Nordschleife Master
10-05-2010, 05:32 PM
#40
Rennlist Member
You've been there and done that, I completely respect that. You've also owned a couple Porsches and have had a blast with them on the track. I really respect that also! Basically you've had a million + "Porsche" experiences in your life, others like me (3+ years), are just starting theirs. You might feel fine driving an SUV around, knowing you P-car is tucked away, but unless I need to haul something, I want 911 miles! Anytime, all the time.
But the OP isn't at that same point in his life with a million 911 miles? Plus it's a first Porsche that he's looking for (or anyone else out there that's lurking and learning from this forum) so it's always a careful balance of a lot of different factors...
But the big point is this is the realization of a dream to many.
Sacrifices come with that, but there is no single major deterrent that comes with a 964. All the major controls are within a normal sporting range and no systems would put you in danger on the road or greatly reduce your comfort in getting anywhere you would go with a more normal car? A longhood might be different...semi-track car might be different...a $13,000 964 might be different? Anything car happen to either a 964 or a 996?
I sit in my car and I see a car that will last a long time, is very well built, and has no major problems or technical deficiencies that would keep it from being used for the next 10 or 20 years given normal (plus 20%) care and attention. It was 17 years old when I bought it and other than normal wear is just a stunning car that still feels 95% whole.
Drive them both, and buy the car you like the best. The rest is history...
10-05-2010, 05:59 PM
#41
You get me wrong my friend, I agree that there most definitely IS a design fault with the IMS on the 986/996/987.1/997.1. And I agree that the only way Porsche could deal with the problem was to design it out for the gen 2 987/997 because even they couldn't find out exactly why a small proportion of IMSs were self destructing. All I was saying is that the occurence of the failure is not as common as internet folklore would have us believe and there is no usage/driving pattern that causes it to fail. Unfortunately that means buying a 996 (or similar) is a bit like Russian Roulette
10-05-2010, 06:08 PM
#42
Rennlist Member
(not an attack on Cobalt, who is an awesome contributor to RL, just using the words to address common sentiments)
You've been there and done that, I completely respect that. You've also owned a couple Porsches and have had a blast with them on the track. I really respect that also! Basically you've had a million + "Porsche" experiences in your life, others like me (3+ years), are just starting theirs. You might feel fine driving an SUV around, knowing you P-car is tucked away, but unless I need to haul something, I want 911 miles! Anytime, all the time.
But the OP isn't at that same point in his life with a million 911 miles? Plus it's a first Porsche that he's looking for (or anyone else out there that's lurking and learning from this forum) so it's always a careful balance of a lot of different factors...
But the big point is this is the realization of a dream to many.
Sacrifices come with that, but there is no single major deterrent that comes with a 964. All the major controls are within a normal sporting range and no systems would put you in danger on the road or greatly reduce your comfort in getting anywhere you would go with a more normal car? A longhood might be different...semi-track car might be different...a $13,000 964 might be different? Anything car happen to either a 964 or a 996?
I sit in my car and I see a car that will last a long time, is very well built, and has no major problems or technical deficiencies that would keep it from being used for the next 10 or 20 years given normal (plus 20%) care and attention. It was 17 years old when I bought it and other than normal wear is just a stunning car that still feels 95% whole.
Drive them both, and buy the car you like the best. The rest is history...
You've been there and done that, I completely respect that. You've also owned a couple Porsches and have had a blast with them on the track. I really respect that also! Basically you've had a million + "Porsche" experiences in your life, others like me (3+ years), are just starting theirs. You might feel fine driving an SUV around, knowing you P-car is tucked away, but unless I need to haul something, I want 911 miles! Anytime, all the time.
But the OP isn't at that same point in his life with a million 911 miles? Plus it's a first Porsche that he's looking for (or anyone else out there that's lurking and learning from this forum) so it's always a careful balance of a lot of different factors...
But the big point is this is the realization of a dream to many.
Sacrifices come with that, but there is no single major deterrent that comes with a 964. All the major controls are within a normal sporting range and no systems would put you in danger on the road or greatly reduce your comfort in getting anywhere you would go with a more normal car? A longhood might be different...semi-track car might be different...a $13,000 964 might be different? Anything car happen to either a 964 or a 996?
I sit in my car and I see a car that will last a long time, is very well built, and has no major problems or technical deficiencies that would keep it from being used for the next 10 or 20 years given normal (plus 20%) care and attention. It was 17 years old when I bought it and other than normal wear is just a stunning car that still feels 95% whole.
Drive them both, and buy the car you like the best. The rest is history...
Interestingly put and I admit I have been a bit cantankerous.
In a nutshell these threads are useless. When you come to the 964 board and ask what is a better choice you get one response a 996 board another a 993 another and so on. In either case these are questions that only the OP can answer for himself the rest of us just shoot the ****. Like asking should I marry the blond or the redhead.
If his heart is set on a 911 as a DD that is his call . You are correct drive them and decide. Nothing any of us say here will make a difference. It is a personal preference.
So what is his criteria for a DD. This can change the answer in so many different ways. Today more than ever there are many factors that can influence what car he chooses:
Do you drive country or city roads, traffic or not?
Are modern conveniences needed? Cup holders, navigation, PSM etc?
Does he drive it in the winter?
Does it snow where he lives?
Is it excessively hot or temperate?
Does he have a qualified independent mechanic nearby or does he plan on wrenching himself or using a dealership?
I can go on and on and with each question potentially influence the outcome of his decision.
So there is no clear cut answer and maybe the answer is to buy what you like and F the rest or not buy a 911 as a DD. Meanwhile we all throw in our dollar three eighty's worth and what does it buy you.
In actuality the only valuable info I can offer him is buy the model that you can find within your budget that is the best maintained with as much documentation as possible that checks out with a qualified mechanic. Otherwise whatever you buy has the potential of being a headache.
10-05-2010, 07:03 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
...the rest of us just shoot the ****. Like asking should I marry the blond or the redhead.
...drive them and decide. Nothing any of us say here will make a difference. It is a personal preference...
...In actuality the only valuable info I can offer him is buy the model that you can find within your budget that is the best maintained with as much documentation as possible that checks out with a qualified mechanic. Otherwise whatever you buy has the potential of being a headache.
...drive them and decide. Nothing any of us say here will make a difference. It is a personal preference...
...In actuality the only valuable info I can offer him is buy the model that you can find within your budget that is the best maintained with as much documentation as possible that checks out with a qualified mechanic. Otherwise whatever you buy has the potential of being a headache.
)I also loved this response on the 996 board:
RF5BPilot said, "Part of the question is, do you want a sports car? Or do you want a sports car that's a hobby?
Same with all older cars, airplanes and boats. What you lose in reliability and parts availability, you gain in personal involvement in repairs, maintenance and operation. "
That's exactly it!
10-05-2010, 07:05 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
10-05-2010, 08:03 PM
#45
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I wrestled over this for about two years actually before I got my current C4 964. Test drove a few 996s. I still feel that the 993s are overvalued for what they are, so didn't really consider them. I would go through cycles of obsessing over 996s, going out for a test drive, then going to rennlist to get a reality check and seeing the multitude of engine failure threads (and not just "sky is falling" my brother's father's sister's friend stories but first hand horrible accounts), I would always decide against venturing into the porsche world. That is until I discovered the existence of the 964.
The older 911s had never really attracted me much, but the more I read about the 964, the more I liked about it. Bulletproof engine and trans when well maintained. Earlier engines are a leak prone, but most cars on the road today have whatever major cylinder head leakage issues taken care of. Looks wise they are to me a perfect mix of the classic 911 form with modern amenities like AC and power steering. I daily drive my 964 without issues and it thrills me every time I get into the somber black (very german) cabin with the large airplane like gauges. The first thing that struck me when I test drove my 964 (the only one I could find in the area at the time!) was how loud it is - burbles like a muscle car. It is so connected to the road - and not in a brittle rough riding kind of way, it communicates without jarring the hell out of me. When I over-weight the outside front tire in a corner, I know it in as natural a way as knowing my body is off balance.
I feel like the 964 is an enthusiast's car, whereas the 996 is more mass market. It doesn't feel as special. Yes it's fast and a bit more comfortable and honestly likely a better car in many ways to the 964 - it simply in the end came down to which one stirred me more. Everytime I pin the tach near redline and hear the roar of the air cooled flat six, I smile or crack up by how amazing it sounds. I have connected with this car in a few months in a way I never connected with other faster cars I've owned.
The fact that it's pretty much hit the bottom of depreciation also helps
The older 911s had never really attracted me much, but the more I read about the 964, the more I liked about it. Bulletproof engine and trans when well maintained. Earlier engines are a leak prone, but most cars on the road today have whatever major cylinder head leakage issues taken care of. Looks wise they are to me a perfect mix of the classic 911 form with modern amenities like AC and power steering. I daily drive my 964 without issues and it thrills me every time I get into the somber black (very german) cabin with the large airplane like gauges. The first thing that struck me when I test drove my 964 (the only one I could find in the area at the time!) was how loud it is - burbles like a muscle car. It is so connected to the road - and not in a brittle rough riding kind of way, it communicates without jarring the hell out of me. When I over-weight the outside front tire in a corner, I know it in as natural a way as knowing my body is off balance.
I feel like the 964 is an enthusiast's car, whereas the 996 is more mass market. It doesn't feel as special. Yes it's fast and a bit more comfortable and honestly likely a better car in many ways to the 964 - it simply in the end came down to which one stirred me more. Everytime I pin the tach near redline and hear the roar of the air cooled flat six, I smile or crack up by how amazing it sounds. I have connected with this car in a few months in a way I never connected with other faster cars I've owned.
The fact that it's pretty much hit the bottom of depreciation also helps