964RS shocks with H&R red
09-20-2010, 05:47 PM
#1
964RS shocks with H&R red
I've been contemplating using the 964 RS shocks to replace my original M030 shocks. Honestly, I'd love a set of coilovers like Moton, Bilstein PSS10, or KWV3, but I'm trying to be reasonable with the fundage right now. So that being said, I've read lots of complaints about the H&R reds with Bilstein HDs valving being too harsh. So why wouldn't the 964 RS shocks be a good alternative?
The thread with all the spring rates was very helpful.
Looking at the chart, the 964 RS front spring rate is very similar to the rate of the H&R reds that I already have. Granted the rear springs are much stiffer, but I suppose I could always try it out with H&R reds and switch to 964 RS springs later, right? I think I'd prefer to err on the side of more stiff valving.
Maybe 964 RS front struts and Bilstein HD rears??? It's tough to tell without knowing much about the Bilstein HD valving, but mixing and matching seems like a bad idea.
The Bilstein HDs are obviously cheaper, so I'd prefer them on that basis. But looking at the spring rates, it appears that the 964 RS front struts are well suited to the H&R reds.
Oddly enough, I can only find the 964 RS shocks at allshocks.com.
The thread with all the spring rates was very helpful.
Looking at the chart, the 964 RS front spring rate is very similar to the rate of the H&R reds that I already have. Granted the rear springs are much stiffer, but I suppose I could always try it out with H&R reds and switch to 964 RS springs later, right? I think I'd prefer to err on the side of more stiff valving.
Maybe 964 RS front struts and Bilstein HD rears??? It's tough to tell without knowing much about the Bilstein HD valving, but mixing and matching seems like a bad idea.
The Bilstein HDs are obviously cheaper, so I'd prefer them on that basis. But looking at the spring rates, it appears that the 964 RS front struts are well suited to the H&R reds.
Oddly enough, I can only find the 964 RS shocks at allshocks.com.
09-20-2010, 08:13 PM
#2
Rennlist Member
When I got my '92 C4 in '98, it had street RS shocks and what I thought were Eibach springs. But they're green, so who knows. Anyway, they've been used on RSA #1 for racing occasionally (when the Protrac shocks I was using needed a last minute repair), and have been on RSA #2 for the past 6 years. Harsh? Sure, compared to stock. But tolerable. Good on track? Not really. But I manage, and have basically run the same times as I do with the PSS9 equipped C4S.
Ultimately, I'd work with someone who knows what's what and revalve some Bilsteins to work with a spring rate that's appropriate for your intended use.
Ultimately, I'd work with someone who knows what's what and revalve some Bilsteins to work with a spring rate that's appropriate for your intended use.
09-20-2010, 09:38 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
I have put HD and Reds on a 93 C2 and think that the ride is fine. In fact it is far superior to the stock shocks and springs they replaced, likely due to worn out old shocks. I certainly would not mix shocks and springs that were not designed to go together.
09-21-2010, 05:35 AM
#4
Please bear in mind:
a) that switching to RS shocks on a non RS car also involves using RS pillow ball top mounts
b) although H&R claim their red and green type springs to fit the RS, these are not at all suited to the RS since they're way too long. This causes the soft part of the progressively wound spring to completely bind upon installation....this obviously gives a very harsh ride.
How I know? PO installed H&R greens on my RS.....not at all a balanced solution, switching back to proper RS springs made a world of difference. I can now actually feel the dampers doing their job of controlling bump and rebound.
The RS setup is considered (too) extreme by many. Try and make a test drive / ride before you decide.
a) that switching to RS shocks on a non RS car also involves using RS pillow ball top mounts
b) although H&R claim their red and green type springs to fit the RS, these are not at all suited to the RS since they're way too long. This causes the soft part of the progressively wound spring to completely bind upon installation....this obviously gives a very harsh ride.
How I know? PO installed H&R greens on my RS.....not at all a balanced solution, switching back to proper RS springs made a world of difference. I can now actually feel the dampers doing their job of controlling bump and rebound.
The RS setup is considered (too) extreme by many. Try and make a test drive / ride before you decide.
09-21-2010, 06:55 AM
#5
Nordschleife Master
I've been contemplating using the 964 RS shocks to replace my original M030 shocks. Honestly, I'd love a set of coilovers like Moton, Bilstein PSS10, or KWV3, but I'm trying to be reasonable with the fundage right now. So that being said, I've read lots of complaints about the H&R reds with Bilstein HDs valving being too harsh. So why wouldn't the 964 RS shocks be a good alternative?
I'm really glad I dug deep and went for coilovers (KWV3).
09-21-2010, 09:59 PM
#6
Please bear in mind:
a) that switching to RS shocks on a non RS car also involves using RS pillow ball top mounts
b) although H&R claim their red and green type springs to fit the RS, these are not at all suited to the RS since they're way too long. This causes the soft part of the progressively wound spring to completely bind upon installation....this obviously gives a very harsh ride.
How I know? PO installed H&R greens on my RS.....not at all a balanced solution, switching back to proper RS springs made a world of difference. I can now actually feel the dampers doing their job of controlling bump and rebound.
The RS setup is considered (too) extreme by many. Try and make a test drive / ride before you decide.
a) that switching to RS shocks on a non RS car also involves using RS pillow ball top mounts
b) although H&R claim their red and green type springs to fit the RS, these are not at all suited to the RS since they're way too long. This causes the soft part of the progressively wound spring to completely bind upon installation....this obviously gives a very harsh ride.
How I know? PO installed H&R greens on my RS.....not at all a balanced solution, switching back to proper RS springs made a world of difference. I can now actually feel the dampers doing their job of controlling bump and rebound.
The RS setup is considered (too) extreme by many. Try and make a test drive / ride before you decide.
The info about the complications of H&R reds being too long for RS shocks is awesome - thank you.
In any case, I'd like to compare the full RS suspension price to Bilstein HD/reds and to PSS10 just for kicks. Does anybody know where to buy OEM RS springs and pillowball mounts?
09-21-2010, 10:23 PM
#7
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I would ride in a car with Bilstein/H&R red before making a final call.
There were so many times in the past I had friends tell me that X spring/shock combo or X coilover was "so unbelievably harsh/rattled my teeth on every bump/would not recommend for street!" Then when I drive their car I find the suspension setup great...it feels taut, very little body roll, and in my opinion, what a sports car suspension should feel like.
All I'm saying is that the same setup on the same car could give two wildly different reactions from mulitple drivers depending on what they're accustomed too. You really need to experience it firsthand before forming an opinion.
There were so many times in the past I had friends tell me that X spring/shock combo or X coilover was "so unbelievably harsh/rattled my teeth on every bump/would not recommend for street!" Then when I drive their car I find the suspension setup great...it feels taut, very little body roll, and in my opinion, what a sports car suspension should feel like.
All I'm saying is that the same setup on the same car could give two wildly different reactions from mulitple drivers depending on what they're accustomed too. You really need to experience it firsthand before forming an opinion.
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09-21-2010, 11:09 PM
#8
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OP-
Keep in mind that the spring rate doesn't tell you how the shock is valved. If you make a significant spring rate change say 50+% yes you will feel it but the spring rate change is not what most people object to. They feel the harshness from shocks where the damping is less than optimized for the application. Shock valving is as much art as science. Also be aware that changing spring rates can significantly alter the vehicle handing characteristics.
Keep in mind that the spring rate doesn't tell you how the shock is valved. If you make a significant spring rate change say 50+% yes you will feel it but the spring rate change is not what most people object to. They feel the harshness from shocks where the damping is less than optimized for the application. Shock valving is as much art as science. Also be aware that changing spring rates can significantly alter the vehicle handing characteristics.
09-22-2010, 04:41 AM
#9
Regarding Motons:
These dampers are in fact very good, and Í'm not being a chauvinist here......Holland produces some of the best dampers in the world with the likes of Koni (racing), JRZ and Moton ;-)
What makes them especially good is their slow bump vs. fast bump circuitry which allows very stiff suspension to be compliant over severe bumps / curbstones. Furthermore you can easily change spring rates to set things up to your likings and use gas pressure to further fine tune - in addition to adjustable slow bump, fast bump and rebound.
Is it worth it on the road? These dampers are in a diffrent world, so I have to say yes to some extent ( I run JRZ's on my Lancia Integrale).....however the 964 can be made to handle pretty well on much less expensive dampers/springs. The RS valving / spring rates are very good on smooth tarmac but can be very jumpy on bumps and really require you to concentrate and be ahead of situations where grip is momentarily lost during mid corner bumps.
Hope this helps.
These dampers are in fact very good, and Í'm not being a chauvinist here......Holland produces some of the best dampers in the world with the likes of Koni (racing), JRZ and Moton ;-)
What makes them especially good is their slow bump vs. fast bump circuitry which allows very stiff suspension to be compliant over severe bumps / curbstones. Furthermore you can easily change spring rates to set things up to your likings and use gas pressure to further fine tune - in addition to adjustable slow bump, fast bump and rebound.
Is it worth it on the road? These dampers are in a diffrent world, so I have to say yes to some extent ( I run JRZ's on my Lancia Integrale).....however the 964 can be made to handle pretty well on much less expensive dampers/springs. The RS valving / spring rates are very good on smooth tarmac but can be very jumpy on bumps and really require you to concentrate and be ahead of situations where grip is momentarily lost during mid corner bumps.
Hope this helps.
