Amdy

Hi all, this is my first post, hope it's in the right spot! I am looking to purchase my first Porsche and am set on a 964. I have one in my sights but have a few concerns. This post maybe premature as I am waiting on some answers from the owner but I thought I'd post anyways cause I am very excited at the prospect of owning and driving my dream car..

The car I am looking at is a 1990 964 with 94k miles on her. The owner claims to have stacks of records (good sign) and has owned the vehicle for the last 7 yrs. He says that he has replaced the DMF and clutch a little while ago among many other things. The one thing that doesn't sit right with me is that this 964 is one without a head gasket. He did let me know that it does leak a little amount of oil. He said she burns some oil on startup but that seems to be normal from what I have read. He just had a service and leakdown test performed which I will include below. It looks like he has a small ac leak somewhere but claims it is much easier to recharge the unit once a yr instead of trying to find the leak. It also appears that the spoiler motor maybe on the fritz, he says it make some noises when it opens and closes. Other than the mechanical concerns, the car appears to be in great shape, owner claims to have it detailed every 3-4 months and he seems pretty genuine about it. Before I make the trip to go see and test drive the car 1000 miles away (which will cost approx. $1000), I wanted to get some opinions on the head gasket issue.

I have asked the following questions and am waiting on a response:

1) When was the DMF and clutch change - mileage and date

2) Has the distributor belt been replaced - mileage and date

3) Has the car ever had a valve job - mileage and date

4) How much oil does she leak?
b) How often are you topping up?
c) Does she only leak after a run or is there a constant drip while sitting?
d) Do you know exactly where the oil is leaking from?
e) Has she always leaked from the day you purchased?

5) Has the distributor casing had the vent modification applied?


And the last thing that I have been thinking is that maybe I should only be looking at 92 and newer. Some have pointed out that they have had some issues resolved (still have issues) but do have airbags and newer style mirrors.

Any thoughts are very much appreciated. It has been a dream of mine since I was a teenager and my best friend and I would take his dad's 964 out on runs when his dad was away on vacation. We made a key copy and to this day his dad still doesn't believe us!!

Service info below:




Make: 90 Porsche 964 Carrera
MiIN:93098
License: Cyl 6; Disp 3.6
VIN: WPOAB2969LS451101



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Quotes:
1 07/29/10 09:08am 467.10


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R&R right outer tie rod Â
leak down/compression testÂ
7-28 PM drop offÂ

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Job01 R&R tie rod Labor: 0.5 hrs@$90.00/hr=$45.00
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Replace RH outer tie rod endÂ
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964 347 322 02 Tie Rod End 1.0 @ 63.89 =$ 63.89
Job Subtotal: $108.89
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Job02 4 Wheel Alignment Labor: 2.0 hrs@$90.00/hr=$180.00
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4 wheel alignment.Â
Performed 2 wheel alignment.Â
Reference print outÂ

Â
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Job Subtotal: $180.00
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Job03 Leak Down Test, 964 Labor: 1.5 hrs@$90.00/hr=$135.00
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Perform leak down and compression test:Â
#1 160psi 3%Â
#2 160psi 4%Â
#3 165psi 3%Â
#4 160psi 0%Â
#5 164psi 3%Â
#6 164psi 2%Â
__________________________________________________________________
Job Subtotal: $135.00
__________________________________________________________________
Job04 A/C Evac/Recover/Recharge,Labor: 1.4 hrs@$90.00/hr=$126.00
__________________________________________________________________
Evacuate, Recover and Recharge A/C System, 134a refrigerant.Â
__________________________________________________________________
NPN LUBE A/C oil 1.0 @ 0.70 =$ 0.70
NPN REFRIG 134a refrigerant 2.8 @ 15.57 =$ 43.60
Job Subtotal: $170.30

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Recommendations: May need spoiler motorÂ

Â
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Cost Summary
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Labor 486.00
Parts 108.19
Shop Supplies 7.50
Subtotal 601.69
Tax 8.96
Total $610.65
Payments 0.00
Bal Due 610.65
Status: Completed Work Order

Dsqr964

Do you have any pics of her as well? What is he asking? I bought a 91 Tiptronic C2 for 14K in November, I have had good luck with the purchase though records were not really available. Not having a head gasket is interesting and something I was not aware of. -D²

raspberryroadster

when were those compression & leakdown tests performed...last week? for the owner.

they are outstanding results. compression even across all cylinders & leakdown from 0-4% that's like excellent! almost too good!!

if you commission your own p.p.i......it will identify many of the issues you are concerned about - and if your p.p.i. comes out with similiar compression/leakdown results....i would be inclined to jump on the car-depending on price. or if you trust the owner ( seems like a caring owner) and talk to the shop that did the p.p.i. may be ok too!

i would not let small seepage/oil leak fuss me if those numbers came from a good pro shop.....this is a strong engine & with recent clutch install looks like a nice car.

price/pictures?

Greg964

Welcome! It sounds like you are asking all the right questions, but you still need to take it to a shop (not one affiliated with the owner) for an independant ppi. Many 89-91 cars had the updated heads installed under warranty by Porsche. There is a way to tell even if there are no records, I believe a stamping or casting on the bottom of the heads will identify the newer style heads-search archives for this info. 89 C4 were the only US cars without airbags. Aside from mechanical items make sure there is no rust-a common area is at base of the windshield right where the gasket meets the body. Has it been repainted? If so make sure it was a quality job with all glass removed,etc. AC has a minor leak? That's what they all say! Make sure this is the case and not something more costly (leaking evap or bad compressor). Check the oil lines make sure they aren't leaking. As I'm sure you're aware these cars can be bought relatively cheaply but a few unanticipated repairs and you will be underwater very quickly-much better to pay a bit more for a nice fully sorted car. Don't be afraid to walk away from a questionable car. Good luck!!

MUSSBERGER

I'm looking for one myself and no matter how nice they look otherwise I have passed on cars that couldn't be proven to have the factory fix. From what I have been told it can cost between 5-7k to make right.

Amdy

Thanks for all the comments, definitely a learning process for me. Owner claims that there are absolutely no dents and zero rust spots. He does admit that up close you can see some scratches and a couple of area's where the paint looks a little worn but only to be expected for a 20yr old car, I would imagine. The leakdown was performed last week. Here is the response from the mechanic (the owner passed on my questions)

1) When was the DMF and clutch change - mileage and date (RS flywheel and clutch upgrade 42,219 11/09/05)


2) Has the distributor belt been replaced - mileage and date (83,602 8/14/09)

3) Has the car ever had a valve job - mileage and date (No record)

4) How much oil does she leak? (NA)
b) How often are you topping up? (NA)
c) Does she only leak after a run or is there a constant drip while sitting? (NA)
d) Do you know exactly where the oil is leaking from? (Cylinder base gaskets, valve cover gaskets, rear mail seal, engine oil line to tank, chain case gaskets)
e) Has she always leaked from the day you purchased? (NA)

5) Has the distributor casing had the vent modification applied? (No record)

So it looks like the DMF and clutch were changed over 40k miles ago. What do you guys think about the mechanics response to the "where is the old leaking from" question? I know it's not that cut and dry.

The owner is asking $21,900, says he'll take $21,000. I attached a pic. So the 1990 had airbags? Did they add more airbags in 92?

A little disappointed learning that the DMF and clutch were changed over 40k miles ago. Any impressions? Again, I haven't seen this car in person and am trying to justify spending $1000 to make the trip. I appreciate your comments.

911Jetta

Then you'll be missing out on a lot of nice cars. This area is still so miss understood. A shame really...

Do you have a 89-91 car w/o head gasket?
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthread.php?t=136205&referrerid=19642

Two simple quotes from Geoffery (from the thread above) that ease my mind:

"The issue of the non headgasket engines are blown out of proportion. The leaking occurs only when the engine is cold or first started and is a result of the residual oil in the cylinders and the excess fuel to start a cold engine. Once the engine is warm, it isn't going to leak. Further, it is not a compression leak, so performance is not degraded."

AND

"The leakage is not an oil leak with dripping down the engine case. The leakage that might occur will be a black sticky residue around the bottom fins of the cylinder head and cylinders. If your engine is leaking oil between the cylinder head and cylinder to the extent that it is dripping oil, then you have much, much larger issues."

Greg964

If your 964 budget is $21-22k I would wait for a better example.

speedbagger

agreed.

beentherebaby

from the number of 964s that I have looked at the head leak issue is pretty minor. I would not pass up an otherwise good vehicle for a little oil residue or wetness below the cylinders. I was never a big fan of the "field repair conversion" on these engines.

Amdy

Again, thanks for your opinions. It's a pretty big task trying to find the solid vehicle as you all know, especially when it's your first. So the owner just sent me some more shots. He keeps the car on a lift in his garage and took some pics under the car. Please let me know your thoughts.

I just left a vm for the mechanic that works on the car to get his thoughts as well.

Is the consensus that for $21-22k I should be able to get a solid, well maintained 964? I'm sure everyone says the same thing, but I was hoping to find a car that has had parts replaced that needed replacing and hoping to not have any large bills for at least a yr or two? Wishful thinking maybe?

Is there a general lifespan for a DMF and clutch? I'm sure it varies but will I be looking at changing it again soon at 94k, previously changed around 40k?

Also I hear people talking about valve jobs, when would she be needing one? I assume again it varies, but is there a general rule of thumb?

Just got an email back from the owner:


Any thoughts on the pics and the owners comments?

Redcoat

As other have mentioned in your thread $21-22K is a little high for a car with those miles. For example I bought my 91 C2 coupe in January with 56K miles, complete history, all tools plus new clutch + flywheel at 44k miles and new Bilstein suspension at 52K miles for $22K.

My buy was the result of a year looking for the best possible car in the color of my choice. That was after spending most of 2008 reading up on everything I could about the 964.

I then looked at several and tried to be very objective when viewing. Very easy to fall for the first car that comes along - that flat six noise can be very seductive!

If like me your fulfilling a long time goal to get a 911 then take your time, don't rush. Lots of good cars out there and while at times it feels like you're hunting for a unicorn, patience will pay off in the end.

For me the hunt was just as much fun as owning the car.

A PPI by a Porsche specialist who knows the oil/aircooled cars is an absolute must - money well spent.

Rennlist is a great resource, I doubt I could have learned enough to confidently buy a car without it.

Makmov

Agreed, I looked casually for 4-5 years, but when I got real serious I found a car in about six weeks.

KNS

I think your target of $20,000+ is a good one, like the others have said, don't settle for the first one you see. I'm going to start looking next year - good luck in your search!

MUSSBERGER

What is he trying to show you in the pics?