Unkle

However that is with the assumption that the Zinc content was only just discovered as an issue, if the issue was highlighted some years ago the cars weren't at that point 20 years old. (if that makes sense)

So if I ring Porsche for advice on oil today for our car they will say 20w50? yesterday I contacted Shell, Castrol, Comma and Mobil tech dept who don't advise an oil that thick, but you would still go against the advice and fit 20w50?

Its an interesting subject that you guys are presenting, which is at odds with some oil companies and perhaps the car manufacturers for example, and i just want to fully understand the reasons why.

Can you tell me the API or ACEA of the Brad Penn 20w50?

Indycam

If I remember correctly , the new catalytic converters being put on cars now are damageable by the additives that were in oils before . The additives were removed from the oils so that the new catalytic converters life would not be cut short .
Same thing with oil for big trucks .


http://www.bradpennracing.com/Zinc.aspx

http://www.bradpennracing.com/CMSFil...nce%20Oils.pdf

Indycam

I wonder at how the oil causes more burn ?
Does it stick to the cylinder walls more and get burnt that way ?
Does it go into the intake as mist and get burnt that way ?

Unkle

So it doesn't follow any API or ACEA classification, and has chosen to opt out? I don't think we would even be able to sell that in the UK to customers. But thats another story...

I checked out the classic range from Castrol as i forgot they did that range. It lists modern classic as "pre 1980" so they are talking 30 years and older engines.. So why the thinking that the 964 is an old car needing 20w50 oil? My thinking is if castrol wanted to they would list that surely? It says "Formulated with high quality mineral oils plus selected additives, ideally suited to older technology and classic car engines." Yet they still suggest a 0w40

Regarding the oil burn, does it have anything to do with the viscosity, or Flashpoint?

Indycam

http://www.lnengineering.com/oil.html

"Flash point is the temperature at which an oil gives off vapors that can be ignited with a flame held over the oil. The lower the flash point the greater tendancy for the oil to suffer vaporization loss at high temperatures and to burn off on hot cylinder walls and pistons. The flash point can be an indicator of the quality of the base stock used. The higher the flash point the better. 400 F is the minimum to prevent possible high consumption."

Unkle

Thanks, I did know what flashpoint meant, I was just throwing it in there lol

To let you know, like SML who also posted that as a reference in another thread, this company also says they recommend and sells Bradd Penn. They add this to the bottom of the info

LN Engineering
Any information you may receive related to this web site is provided merely as friendly suggestions, not as expert opinion, testimony or advice. Neither LN Engineering nor Charles Navarro endorses or sponsors any information, products or methodologies you may find herein. - Sorry for the legal mumbo-jumbo!

Does that mean they don't stand by the claims they make in the above article, or have i missed something.

Sorry, but if Brad Penn isn't within any recognised industry spec I wouldn't put it on my mountain bike chain, and i don't think it could be sold in the UK or Europe, as UK oils from leading manufacturers are backed by a warranty, in other words use the oil that meets or exceeds spec and it will be covered.


LN Engineering
Many Porsche repair shops have acknowledged that these newest SM and CJ-4 motor oils are not sufficient for protecting any Porsche engine, including newer water-cooled ones

I would like to see clear evidence of multiple engine failure (more than 30%)and testing data from using either the manufacturers spec oil, or the oil companies recommended oil (and offer a warranty for). Reading an article that says Porsche repair shops acknowledge something isn't sufficient evidence IMO. But thats just me.


This is a good general comparison of oils in a basic form showing the properties, click the type of oil and it shows you on a chart the structure of the oil (a guide only)
http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/.../pc/index.html

Hey it doesn't solve the "more burn issue", but interesting discussion none the less..

My disclaimer: Any information you may receive related to my post is provided merely as friendly suggestions, not as expert opinion, testimony or advice. Neither Me or my cat (that knows far more than me) endorses or sponsors any information, products or methodologies you may find herein. - Sorry for the legal mumbo-jumbo!

Indycam

The "specs" in the U.S. for oil are now that they must have less of the good things in them .
If you try to get the oil approved and you have to much of the good stuff in the oil , the oil will not be given a passing grade . To get the passing grade you will have to remove some of the good stuff and have the oil retested .
An exception to the rules is "racing" oil .

Porsche made the 964 motors with the old spec oil in mind .
The old spec oil had more of the good stuff in it .
Unfortunately the government told oil manufactures that the must remove the good stuff for environmental reasons . New motors are made to run happily on the new spec oil . Unfortunately the older motors are not made to run on the new oil .
So you can buy and put in your motor the new oil that has the ratings
or the old spec oil that does not have the rating because it exceeds the current specs .

In Mobil 1 , the car oil was made to the new specs and it was not as good .
They took out ...
Mobil 1 V twin oil has the good stuff . Its made for motorcycles that have no catalytic converter .
The mobil 1 v twin oil does not have "car" ratings on the bottle . It has motor cycle ratings .
A "hot" set up is a bottle of the v twin mixed in with the normal mobil 1 .
Its said that the good stuff in one bottle of v twin will bring the specs up to the old level .

Indycam

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/e...ech/index.html

Unkle

Thanks Indycam, its a good read and throws up some good question, I assume your reply tries to answer my evidence query from this opening paragraph that mentions the issue.

For the last several years, many engine builders and individual hotrodders have experienced a raft of seemingly unexplained flat-tappet camshaft lobe failures. As one engine builder puts it, "I've failed morecams in the last three years than I have in the last 30."

Anecdotal evidence from builders and hotrodders that say - it could be the quality of metal and cheap imported cam parts they or others bought, or oil spec, is not clear evidence or even close to test data of multiple 964 engine failure due to low Zinc.

But thats just me. Still doesn't solve the oil burn issue for Porsche Zen, but would have thought the NY climate are similar to UK so surprised at the thick oil choice.

Duck

I just changed from Brad Penn 20W50 to 15W40 as we go into winter (no storage for me). My main issue with the thinner weight is the oil pressure light coming on at stop lights once oil temp is at normal level. I do have a new sensor to install and will see if this is the issue.

I am definitely no expert, but changing oil regularly and taking long enough drives to burn off moisture in the system, seems to me to be the most important thing.

Indycam

The light coming on is covered in the owners manual . Its "normal".

Indycam

"Anecdotal evidence" ?

"Mark Ferner, team leader for QuakerState Motor Oil Research and Development"

"Ferner adds, "The zinc reacts with the cam lobe's iron surface. That creates a sacrificial chemical coating strong enough to keep parts separated to reduce the wear." Although great for keeping a flat tappet alive, as an engine ages and develops blow-by, some of the additives flow out the exhaust where they can degrade oxygen sensor and catalytic converter performance.Faced with ever more stringent emissions standards and the governmental mandate for extended emissions-control- system warranties, the OEMs got together with the motor oil makers and decided to reduce the amount of ZDDP in street-legal, gasoline-engine motor oils. After all, they weren't needed with modern roller lifters and overhead-cam followers.The reduction first started in the mid-'80s, and it has been a gradual process, but the latest API SM and GF-4 specs have reduced ZDDP content to such an extent that the new oils may not provide adequate protection for older, flat-tappet-equipped vehicles running non stock, performance cams and valve trains. And it will only get worse; projected future oil spec revisions will likely reduce ZDDP content even more."

Your desire for me to provide evidence of 964 motor failures is a bit much don't you think ?

Bearclaw

Just curious, why did you change?

Unkle

Sorry i know this isn't relating to the thread..

Not really Indycam, if you imply people risk going against industry spec, oil manufacturer spec or Porsche spec you really need evidence more than that. i want test bed data on 964 German flat tappets

But anyway I appreciate you polite replies Indycam but perhaps we shouldn't do this in someones thread, lets contribute to the 75 pages on pelican

Indycam

From what I have read , Porsche can not ask you or me to use non federally approved motor oil in our road cars in the U.S.A. .

Tappets and cams .
If the cam has slightly greater wear such that it needs replacing twice as often ...

If you do not want to discuss this , thats fine , I will not force you to .