ltc

It would be nice if Keith V would drop in now and again and be the official forum "RSAmerica Moderator"...... this topic is always in need of adult supervision.

Slantnose!

cobalt

It was built on a 79 SC back in 1983 by an Ex factory werks mechanic that worked on all the IROC RS/RSR projects using original factory IROC Bumpers, hood, doors and front fenders and 8 & 9 x 15" fuchs . The rear flairs were aluminum and the suspension was converted to coil over. The front snout was modified per IROC specs to accommodate the factory 20 tube oil cooler exactly as they did in the IROC cars.

Where it differed was it had a full interior, used Turbo Carrera brakes, a 930 tail and the stock engine modified by Max Moritz using his 3.2 l P&C set and a Carrera crank before it was released by the factory. Had this car for 19 years and it was a blast. Should never have sold it it was quicker than the 930's off the line at the time although it was not as fast once moving since it was lacking a little extra torque that the turbos have.

I was lucky enough to meet Alois Ruf at his facility with the car. My friends uncle knew him. He took the car for a ride and was quite impressed. Back then a number of clones were built by this man and one was of a 74 RSR street version every detail was perfect again using the factory parts but went further by hand stitching leather around the roll cage and twin turbo charging it. Yes not exact clones but 90% of the clones i read about are never exact to factory spec and usually have a bigger power plant.

Sorry for the digression now back to RSA talk.

KeithV

I am flattered that someone asked my opinion on this - maybe I should ask Rennlist about becoming a moderator for RSA discussions - not wanting to tread on toes of the existing knowledgable team of moderators (our Australian/Swiss Sensai included).

I spent four years communicating by phone and e-mail with the archivist in Stuttgart, plus the Porsche Club coordinators in the factory data department in the capacity of the Registrar for the PCA RS America registry. This included some of the (brief) time I spent in the capacity of National Historian for the Porsche club of America - whereby I think I got a faster response than most.

Some might call it a religious quest.

I obtained definitive RSA production numbers including VIN# ranges, I got qualification statements and requested research be performed on issues exactly like “were 1992 Cup car bodies used on early RSA's? - were higher powered engines earmarked for RS America production line? - seam Vs spot welded tubs - why was the black paint around the insides of the door frame and behind the front grill only on earlier cars? - what was the significance of crinkle finish under the hood? What is option code 718 etc. etc. etc. this ongoing communication culminated in my making an appointment and going to the factory and discussing these points on site, where records could be pulled and verified. I visited to the factory and talked to the records team on two separate occasions to clarify as much as possible.

I tried to clarify/closeout a lot of these plus other issues on the RSA in an article that was published in Panorama - the award winning National PCA newsletter in April 2006 entitled “What exactly is an RS America?”.

I posted the article on the website I created to support the PCA RS America registry http://www.rsamerica.net and a link to the specific article is below.

Pano - What is an RS America?

As for justifying the price premium of RSA Vs C2?

My 2c is …. before you make your mind up based on hearsay or “expert testimony” from Rennlist/Panorama/Car & Driver/some 13 year old kid from Idaho on an internet forum/Rod & Truck/car salesmen/your neighbors Mum etc.etc. ………. find some back roads, and go drive an RSA – and I don’t mean just a test drive around the block.

And as to whether an RS America really is a true “RS” car …………

Well ……. I didn’t add the “RS” emblem and decals.

Porsche did.

If you disagree … I suggest you take it up with Porsche .... because you obviously feel you know Porsche better than they do.

Don’t get me wrong – I respect all 964’s C2, C4 whatever - they are GREAT cars. I chose to buy an RS America based on 1) my values and 2)how the RSA felt to drive near or at the limit.

Good thread by the way – I can’t wait for it to pop up again in another 4 – 6 months ....... as it always seems to.

For those of you with the interest and the time .... check out the FAQs page of RS America.net

Let the debate continue........

elbeee964

"Tonto -- who was that stranger?"
"Me not know, Kimosabe... but he left a silver RS wheel cap"

[wink] Happy to see you drop in, Keith. Good info.

cobalt

Your research and site are very nice and you should be applauded.

I don't want to create a riff although other than the manual rack IMO there is no difference in feel between an RSA and C2 at limit. The feedback is better from the manual rack but both cars will do the same thing. I actually prefer the power rack myself but to each their own.

I agree the RSA should command a premium although I think all the 964's are undervalued and more likely than not the RSA has the biggest advantage and IMO that is owner loyalty. You can be assured that most RSA owners either cared that little extra or made the car into a mean track machine. So unless it has been a serious accident you are probably getting an enthusiasts owned car vs buying a used C2. I am sure the % of RSA owners that are fanatics exceed 75% vs C2 owners which is probably closer to 40%. Not including the people here that is.

Again just my opinion.

ltc

^ + 1
IMHO, it would be nice to have you as a 964 RSAmerica "moderator at large".

DrJupeman

RS America came stock with the 030 sport option suspension, no? Most C2s will not have that. So I would think "stock to stock" the two would feel different, other than the manual vs. powered steering. (Some (many?) might not notice the difference between the 030 and standard setup, I suppose.)

cobalt

You have a point. But the M030 theoretically is nothing more than the slightly stiffer springs from the turbo and a 1mm increase in the front bar. I find very few C2's or RSA's still running stock suspension. IMO in both cases the stock suspension needs improvement and most everyone here has upgraded their suspensions. I think even you would be hard pressed to extract a "significant" amount extra out of an RSA over a C2 with these nominal improvements. Once upgrading is involved the sky is the limit and either will do.

Damian in NJ

Well, MegaMillions is close to $90,000,000-and I just bought some tickets. Maybe just to mess with you guys I'll buy a low mileage USA RS and use it to send to Ninemeister in the UK to make into a Euro RS clone?

What would it be called? USRS/EuroRSclone-with seam welding of course and rolled fenders?

Bull

Just get one that came from the Factory with seam welding.

It would simply be called a CLONE....named Dolly?

DogInBlack

christallon

Great thread. The next question is how does "low miles" affect the added value. By this I mean does a 20,000 mile RSA or C2/C4 for that matter command a much higher price than say a 60K - 80K mile car. Is the difference significant or just a few thousand dollars?

boxsey911

I find this subject a very interesting read

For comparison the average market value for a good condition 964C2 in the UK is £15.000 while the value of a 964RS (which are almost invariably in great condition) is £45,000. That's a premium of about $45,000!!! Any significant changes to a 964RS (not that they are needed IMO) can severely affect this premium hence most of the owners keep them as they were meant to be, save to change the wheels so that the original very expensive mags can be stored if the car ever gets sold on. I would have thought that over time the same will happen with the RSA vs C2 premium. Although it will probably never be as big, it will be the standard RSA that commands the most premium over a C2.

ilko

IMO in the C2/C4 world you're looking at a $5-7K premium for a low-mileage car. A low mileage RSA would cost at least $10K over and sometimes even more than a higher-mileage one.