Alex Sol

Bill,

Thanks for the lead. I ran a small business in Milton for the last 18 years. Mohawk Inn... but never ran into Bronkos... also in Milton.

I was at the shop for a short while today. Found the steering pump leaking.

Also sourced out 2 machine shops in Toronto area.

Tony from A&M Machine Shop was very helpful and showed me around this shop. He had a subaru motor and a VW motor on the bench. He showed me the difference in 'play' in a couple different valves / guides. He told me to change valves / guides only if needed and he didn't think i'd need to change springs - even with 290,000 kms on the motor.

Anyone have any good / bad to say about the TSW intake / exhaust valves from EBCRacing? They are quite well priced: $26.00 usd each -intake and exhaust valves are the same price ??

Gave me a price on machining cylinder heads, cutting valves and re-seating the cylinders. Also reminded me to have the flywheel machined. And the cool thing was, he suggested i speak to the 'guru' on VW and Porsche motors in Toronto - Tom from Motex and gave me his number even.

So i called and talked about:

machining heads $140 x 6
resizing rods - not sure what that meant $45 x 6
clean and polishing rocker arms $80.00
crankshaft polish $80.00
wash the case $ 100.00

Motor will be taken apart Wednesday and we'll have a look inside.

I'd appreciate all your comments ....

dutchcrunch

Hello Alex, i dont mean to be rude in anyway and wanted to say this first as not to offend anyone.

you engine is very high milage. i would consult with someone like Steve Weiner for technical information. he would not steer you wrong. actually i would send my head to him if i were you . as far as the springs go, i would not put the old one back back in the car, they have to many cycles on them.

i would think that the piston and cylinders would need to be replace too. again i would consult with Steve from rennsport. is your gasket set all viton seals?

i know you want to spend as less as possible, but somethings just need to be replaced.

i would not let anyone touch those posche heads that does not have some major experience with these type heads.

at least talk with Steve and from there you can do as you like.

your money, your engine, just dont want you to be misinformed.

dutch

38D

100% agree that you want a machine shop familiar with porsche engines

dutchcrunch

not just familar, but one thats a specialist or deals only with porsche. those heads are worth thousands of dollars and there is no room for errors. check this wesite out, it Steve weiners who is an expert.

http://www.rennsportsystems.com

Alex Sol

Okay a quick update.

Motor has been stripped down to the long block.

With your excellent advice i will find a local porsche shop to rebuild the motor and then re-insert. My initial plan to diy with my mechanic is not going to work. The tools and the skills required are a bit much for this one time job.

I have a choice of 2 or 3 shops. I hope they will be able to start/finish fairly quickly and most importantly allow me to take some shots of the process. The idea being to learn a little about these motors but not necessarily get the hands too dirty.

We are heading into winter here in Toronto and the 964 will definitely be ready for Spring!

dutchcrunch

Hello Alex, check all 3 of them and when they give you a quote, ask them what parts they are going to replace?? for the money they will charge you. also what brand, you want porsche factory parts. tell them you want the old parts back too. i know your in a hurry but do take your time in finding the right builder. network with rennlister and references to make sure they are who the claim to be. we are talking big money here so get your money worth and the right parts and rebuild to go with it.

we have places here in the states that cut corners and i just want to make sure that does not happen to you.

do you guys have a porsche club out there, there might be someone you cna call and find out who is who.

i wish you the best and may you have a strong leakfree engine that that you paid big money for


there may be some reputable porsche engine builder here in the states that might can recommend a shop near you too.

its a small world and the word gets around if your doing good work or BAD work, especially Porsche.

Alex Sol

Thanks Dutchcrunch,

I have narrowed it down to 2 reputable guys. The challenge is that they cannot quote me a price until we open up the motor. I think that is reasonable because i don't have any history on the motor and i suspect the previous owner just drove the car alot. When i bought it, it had many things that needed fixing. I knew that when buying but i didn't know it could be so difficult to fix and costly.

I went to the shop today and checked out the progress.

We found the small belt in the distributor was snapped and needs to be fixed. Does that mean i have been running on 6 spark plugs only? is this possible?

Also, the distributor caps are both charred so they will need replacing along with wires and spark plugs.

Looking at the block, there is a about 3-4 leaks from various places and the entire top of the block is black and gooey. Probably part of the problem is the leaky steering pump.

Point of interest: I went onto Ebay to check out motors.

Oklahoma Porsche Dismantler has a 90 964 motor with 85K miles on it. No leaks... (yeah right!) for $7000 + $1500.00 core. Includes from intake to exhaust.

Also LA Dismantler has a 91 965 Turbo 3.3 with 58K miles on it. Will it bolt in or does it require many changes? $11,000 hmmmm.....

Comments??? Besides, I don't want to be buying some else's problems. I feel that if i can get 75Kmiles on this motor and have a spare that i am ahead. Also, can take my time and diy the motor rebuild - Scary thought. The thing that bugs me the most is to put $5000-$8000 into the 964 and not get any improvement in performance... I feel this is just wrong!

Johnny G Pipe

Whats the reason for a full rebuild, just out of interest? I'm guessing its not just for the mileage, oil leaks and missing tin. Knocking? Smoking? No power? At 120K miles on an untouched motor its nice to know what may lie ahead..

demonfish

I have 180k miles and still making 280bhp.... i only need to address some oil leaks, which look like pulling it apart to sort. Its had one top end jobby, if that helps

Alex Sol

Reason for full rebuild:

Motor leaks in several places and have found that the power steering pump and transmission leaks in several places also.

The motor runs well but i've not had it dyno'd.

Being in Toronto, there is lots more corrosion that you might find in warmer climates so the tin will be replaced though i don't drive it in winter ... much!

I've had the car for two years and drove it about 50,000 kms so i thought a valve adjustment would be good.

New clutch kit is going to be installed.

I am very interested in seeing all the inner workings of this motor and learning really so definitely out of interest.

I would leave the motor as is and tolerate the 1litre of oil per 1000kms if it did not leak on my red hot exhaust on track days....

Knocking? not sure what that is but i haven't noticed any of it?
Smoking? a little on start up and just from the oil leaking onto hot pipes
Power? is still good though with a slipping clutch and only running on 6 spark plugs, perhaps it will feel much improved just with a simple re-seal???

race911

Exactly the same thing that the '94 cab I picked up a couple of months ago with 197K on the clock. Seems the previous owner had been chasing low idle oil pressure since he (mistakenly?) bought the car a couple of years before...... I'm just glad he caught the rod knock in time, so maybe I've got something rebuildable in a core. But I'm throwing in a spare. No way is it worth it for this car to do a full rebuild.

To who question how/why you'd need new P&C's........the ring lands wear out. Funny thing though, you'd think every single high miler would be worn out. A 3.2 I picked up that Bob Grigsby did at 175K didn't need a new set. Too odd, huh? But this car was religiously maintained from day one, AND was run hard, hard, hard its whole life (was Hank Watt's time trial/autocross car for many years).

Johnny G Pipe

Thanks for the reply Alex and demonfish, I guess I am being slightly provocative and would vote for a reseal. You didnt ask for votes, I know!

By knocking I mean ominous noises from the crankcase, suggesting rod bearing or piston wear, smoke suggesting worn rings/lands, very low oil pressure - all the usual stuff from the 'old car days' that suggests that an engine is truely worn out.

My little hobby horse is that these poor unsuspecting 964 engines seem to get full enchilada bottom up rebuilds because, mainly it seems, because of oil leaks and good intentions, even though they are still as good as new in terms of power, torque and reliability. Or better than new- my last dyno showed way over factory torque from my motor.

I have to say that after being on rennlist all these years, I havent heard of very many 964 motors rebuilt for these reasons - it is usually because of something more catastrophic happening, sometimes mysteriously following a change of oil lines or other 'specialist' intervention. Lots of stories of post full rebuild oil leaks too.

I badly need tinware (we get 5 months of salt too) and have had minor but consistent leaks from O rings and cam covers for 7 years plus - and I'll get it done at some point, but I would rather leave the rest of the motor untouched for as long as possible - mainly because I dont want to undo the magic forged in Stuttgart unless absolutely necessary!

I'm not meaning to be argumentative, as I dont really know much other than 7 years of ownership and rennlist, but its interesting to discuss it.

Alex Sol

Johnny,

Absolutely not provocative - if we wanted some heated discussion, let's talk Celtics vs the Rangers!! I am leaning towards your suggestion of reseal and run! We'll have a look inside first.

You are right to ask me why the bottom up rebuild when I really don't flog the car on the track and autocross but 3-4 times / year and the body, though in decent shape, has been in an accident and resprayed, has scratches from being 'keyed' by silly teenagers scarring 4 panels (rear quarters and rear), side swiped by another car in parking lot (hit and run) damaging driver side fender and door, and numerous scratches from my 3 sons (9,7,5yrs old) dropping, leaning their toys/bikes/hockey sticks on my car.

And so i've brought the long block into a specialist who calls it a second Gen, due to the color of the rocker covers,and will open it up this next couple of days and see what is needed.

As you can see from our discussion and dutchcrunch knows this only too well, i am hoping to rebuild 'economically'. It is encouraging to read demonfish's comments and we really won't know what's required until the see what inside

will keep you posted...

does any one have a good source for tin? new, used, dismantlers, ebay?
Mine is quite rusted from the salt used on roads though the car was not really driven in the winters. I didn't know you guys had to use the nasty stuff on roads there? Do you at least have some nice twistys on which to drive your toys?

sundog

What, the Boston Celtics are playing the New York Rangers? Hockey or B-Ball?

JK, we don't get many of the scottish league games over here. Mostly Premiership, and Serie-A games.

Alex Sol

okay, here's some pictures:

found some coilovers - pleasant surprise

cam shaft is smooth with not pits

caps are burnt and will replace along with wires

cam gear - will replace