Ritter v4.0

For those who have done it- any regrets?

Stateside, what's the approx. cost of doing 3.8L conversion. I realize there are variables but a range would be helpful. I could be tempted this year and at any rate like to have a goal to work towards. Kinetic are keen to do it recognizing that a customer like me (read: sucker with uncontrollable urges) doesn't come along too often.

Obviously its largely an emotional purchase, but I do need to consider resale. Though I love my car and consider it a keeper, I said the same thing about my first 4 wives << Honey, it was a joke>>.

Without being overly analytical after 3 years/15k miles how much of the cost would you expect to write down or off?

Chris M.

Does your engine need work or are you just looking for more power? $20K is the number I've often heard tossed around.

YYC930

Hello Ritter.....!!

The Mahle PC set is usually between $4-5K USD at retail........depending where you buy it, and who has it on sale at any given time........YMMV.

Now........the question becomes, and as you understand........how far do you want to go, and what state is your existing engine in ?

Theoretically.........just swapping the PC set could cost $4K of labor plus misc. parts........so let´s say $10K with over allowances for other stuff.........

I have done 4-5 of these over the years......and the bottom end torque gain is seat of the pants noticeable.

Ritter v4.0

I've got a track focused car thats getting more so each day. Engine is like 140k but top-end was done by PO about 15k ago. I'm shedding weight but can foresee when short of a total gut, I'll be at the end of that road.
So about $10-$20k as a board range? Pretty much what I guessed and do-able. What do you end up with at each end of the range?

What about re-gearing (lower) as an alternative- this is a popular 993 re-bore RL discussion alternative.
Does it apply to 5-spds as well?

mjshira

I don't think it is worth the money. You'd be better off waiting for a motor that is built how you want and buying it. Then you can sell your current engine and you'll come out ahead. Anytime you go into a motor you will end up spending more than you planned to. Check out Dr. Timmon's 'the truth about 3.8's' on his site www.instant-g.com. He is a really good guy, email him with your questions.

Geoffrey

I think it depends on what you want to do with it. The 3.8 comes in two different versions, 107mm slip in and 109mm bore in. If you are tracking or racing the car, you will want the stronger 109 set. If it is a street car, you can probably get by with the 107mm set. The 3.8 pistons aren't that great, they are heavy, have a deaxised wrist pin which causes problems on one of the banks, and the valve reliefs are not deep enough for some performance camshafts. You may consider what else your investment will buy and weigh the cost.

Ritter v4.0

Thanks- like re-gearing?

sturm_old

Mine was 20k 6yrs ago. There's a lot of "while you're in there..." Second oil cooler, A/C delete (unit and all hoses), heater blower delete, new engine tin, included a top end (cams, head work), lower end bearings. I used the Mahle 'slip fit' so no case machining.

I'm using a Unichip interceptor to manage the upgrade. The builder provided chip didn't work correctly

Prior to this I had short 3,4,5 gears installed. This was a noticeable upgrade as the car stays in the meaty part of the torque curve. I didn't need the stock 160mph top speed. Redline is now about 148 at 6800.

Is there a fully developed turn-key 3.8 build now available?

'93rsa 3.8
MAF, B&B, 928/993 brakes, H&R coil overs, Kuhmo on FIKSE FM-10

Ritter v4.0

As I said Kinetic will and have done it but as a one-off (i.e. not exactly turn key).
Theres also these guys as mjshira has pointed out:
http://instant-g.com/Products/36Conversion/38.html

Its sobering because the cost/benefit ratio is pretty high. But we all know extracting more from the 3.6 is a diminishing returns exercise.

Allow me to hihjack my own thread- tell us more about the re-gearing.

Azikara

Just throwing $0.02 in here: Why not re-build to a "blue-printed" 3.6? The reason I say this is that it will make your car that much flexible in terms of what you want to do with it one day and make it more desirable to the PCA race crowd. The issue is that folks upgrade their track cars and later decide they want to race OR worse, try and off-load it in the race section of the classifieds but it is not a race car that fits in any class. The 3.8 is an odd ball except in the RS. If you are just looking for that extra punch and don't care about flexibility or re-sale then by all means do it. But then again, you can probably go faster with a better suspension. Get a nice double adjustable suspension from any of the major manufacturers. If you take a look at what times the seasoned racers are doing in their 964s at your local tracks and you are not close, then you know you have lots of room to grow with the 3.6 as-is.

Good luck with the decision.

Tristan

mjshira

good advice

Christer

I think adding around 5% displacement is not going to set your world on fire on its own. I am not sure which shops you have over there and what you have to pass emissions on etc. but maybe Geoffrey could take a look? IMHO, its all about who builds it and is able to put everything together for you.

Its one thing to spend $20K for 310hp, and another to spend $40K for close to 400hp.......the 40K is better spent in doller per hp - but thats up to you and your budget and the limits you have from outside sources.....

I think you need to look at whether you need to pass smog for a start. If so, then the limits will be set for you to a large degree. If you don't then how much do you want to spend and as importantly *who* can do the work?

With regards to 3.8 or not, Ninemeister in the UK can get pretty much the same out of a 3.6 as they can out of my 3.8.......maybe a little less torque..but even so....thats why I say that it is imperative that you get the right outfit to do the job......

You can PM me if you want - I am happy to share my experiences.

DaveConn

Hi Ritter,

Thought I would post my experience with re-gearing, FWIW.

My engine and trans. were completely re-built last February, including re-gearing 3rd-5th. Since we were already in there, and I was interested in performance gains (within a reasonable budget ), it made sense to consider this approach. It definitely made a difference in the sensation of how the car accelerates, and it is much easier to stay in the power band (4000-6400rpm in my car) during track time, but it's hard to give you a quantifiable sense of how much bang for the buck you will get (especially since my motor was re-built, and modified, at the same time). Put it this way, though, I would absolutely do it again if I were in the same position. IIRC, the gear sets were approx. $1200/ea., so it is still not a "cheap" approach, but definitely worth considering if you are already going to be doing trans. work...

If you have not already done so, you might get in touch with Steve Weiner at Rennsport Systems. I am not affiliated with him professionally, but he is a friend. I'm sure he, as well as a few others here, would be more than willing to discuss the pros and cons for your particular need...

Best regards,

Dave

Bill Verburg

I have the RSR mahles w/109mm spiggots in mine, though Geoffreys observations are correct, they are fine for all but the highest levels of professional motorsport. They are factory parts and work as such.

the package of p/c and mild RS type cams makes for a very nice, very torquey upgrade to a stock 3.6, it isn't cheap but if you are rebuilding and buying new 3.6 p/c anyway it becomes a reasonably priced upgrade.

I am sure that there are other nice 3.8 - 4.0 packages available as well.

As to gearing, stock US g50/05 is geared for
41.4
70.4
103.0
133.6
167.0

g50/10 used in RS
44.5
74.1
99.7
129.3
161.6

As w/ the 3.6 to 3.8 it doesn't sound like much, but the reality is it makes an effective and substantial change in the character of the car.

only your CEO and you can determicne the cost effectiveness.

of couse if you are doing it and can afford it, Geoffrey's GT3 crank, Ti con rod 3.9? w/ 9M heads and Motec(Geoffreys set up is fantastic btw) are the way to go

Ritter v4.0

The suspension (JIC's with TRG sways) is basically done- I'm just looking ahead a little and openly wondered about going to one gallon (3.8L). And there's no rush because I'm far from extracting the max from the car as is.
Blue printing the 3.6, re-gearing etc. its all on the table.

Dave- did you go 3.8 AND re-gear at the same time? If so, guess thats why its hard to say what had what effect.