Notices
964 Forum 1989-1994
Sponsored by:
Sponsored by:

Modified Performance Engine Longevity

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old Dec 25, 2007 | 02:31 PM
  #1  
Geoffrey's Avatar
Geoffrey
Thread Starter
Nordschleife Master
20 Year Member
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 8,305
Likes: 16
From: Kingston, NY
Default Modified Performance Engine Longevity

Merry Christmas to all, hopefully it finds you with friends and family.

Last week I removed the engine from my racecar for annual maintenance and thought that I would take some time to speak about the engine, and engine longevity in general. I know there have been great discussions on how long a modified 964 engine will last so I thought I'd post some facts about this particular engine.

The engine has been raced for 2.5 years and a total of 68.9 hours and if you are not familiar with the configuration, it is a 3.8l engine with factory pistons and cylinders, 12.0:1 compression, camshafts with over 317 degrees duration and .525" of lift set on an agressive centerline, 9M heads, MoTeC engine management controlled with no knock sensing, and run on Mobil 93 octane street fuel. We normally disassemble, inspect, and replace air cooled racing engines like this at 80 hours, but I'm going to run this engine another season and will probably add another 30 hours to it for a total of about 100 hours.

The engine condition looks good with no oil leaks. The leakdown on all cylinders is from a low of 1% to a high of 2% leakdown. And the valve adjust is within specification, but I did tighten up several exhaust valves to the lower end of the specification. Remember that Porsche has specified wider valve clearances for their RSR racing engines than the street version.

I'm a little disappointed that the engine is in such good condition because now I have to wait another year to rebuild the engine and install some new parts. The new engine will have a custom piston and cylinder and I'll up the compression ratio to 12.5:1. The new piston will be significantly ligher, and have some other modifications to it. I will be using some 9M valve train parts including their high lift rocker arms which will allow a larger camshaft to be fitted. Again, this camshaft will be designed based on the flow testing I did on the 9M head. I'll also be switching to titanium connecting rods from the steel Carrillo rods that are currently in the engine. I'm currently limiting the engine RPM to 7800 (I have run it to 8100) to improve the longevity of the engine. With the new engine, I expect to be able to run the engine to 8200rpm, again, on street 93 octane fuel.

When I reinstall the engine in the car for the next season, I'm going to lean the engine out slightly from where I'm currently at (.89 lambda on full throttle). This should help fuel mileage. I want to see how lean I can run the engine with no loss in performance and no risk to melting the engine. My race engine is tuned the same way I would tune a street car. At idle, even with the long duration camshafts, the engine idles at 1.0 lambda, and at light throttle it runs at 1.0 lambda. Only under high load does the engine get richer to help it run cool enough. The engine is also tuned for maximum timing with no room for error, it has the most timing the engine will take.

At the same time, we are in the process of converting on 964 street car to the 9M+1 (cams) package. This project will consist of a 9M MoTeC conversion box for the wire harness, a MoTeC M48 ECU with wide band lambda enabled and a Fabspeed exhaust. We will be testing a newly designed and improved 9M camshaft specific for the US market, and I'll be tuning the MoTeC for use on USA fuel, in this case 93 octane. So, you can call this the 9M USA version of their +1 package. The doner car is a 44k mile coupe. We have a second, almost identical project scheduled for later this winter, so this should be interesting.

Last edited by Geoffrey; Dec 25, 2007 at 05:24 PM.
Reply
Old Dec 25, 2007 | 02:43 PM
  #2  
CWay27's Avatar
CWay27
20 Year Member
 
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 3,851
Likes: 0
From: Montreal, Canada
Default

Good news on your race engine, too bad you had to built strong reliable engine

Keep us posted on the 9M US version.

Merry Christmas!!
Reply
Old Dec 26, 2007 | 11:05 AM
  #3  
N51's Avatar
N51
Drifting
 
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 2,314
Likes: 0
From: behind the Corn Curtain
Default

Originally Posted by Geoffrey
At the same time, we are in the process of converting on 964 street car to the 9M+1 (cams) package. This project will consist of a 9M MoTeC conversion box for the wire harness, a MoTeC M48 ECU with wide band lambda enabled and a Fabspeed exhaust. We will be testing a newly designed and improved 9M camshaft specific for the US market, and I'll be tuning the MoTeC for use on USA fuel, in this case 93 octane. So, you can call this the 9M USA version of their +1 package. The doner car is a 44k mile coupe. We have a second, almost identical project scheduled for later this winter, so this should be interesting.
Geoffrey,

How does the Fabspeed compare with the B&B header with regard to primary length, ID, or anything else that may differentiate the two? If its' build quality matches that of my cat bypass, I'm sure it will surpass the B&B in that respect. You've used this header before?

Thanks,
Reply
Old Dec 26, 2007 | 11:41 AM
  #4  
Geoffrey's Avatar
Geoffrey
Thread Starter
Nordschleife Master
20 Year Member
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 8,305
Likes: 16
From: Kingston, NY
Default

I have not ever used any of the off the shelf street performance systems for the 964, so I cannot really comment on comparisons. I have used some Fabspeed products in the past on the Cup cars and seen them on other people's cars and know the quality and fitment is among the best. I have tuned street cars with Fabspeed products on them, but have not had opportunity to do comparison tests. You have to remember that my core business is the racing environment and the products are completely different with a different set of requirements. When I get the system in, I can certainly share the information you are looking for with you.
Reply
Old Dec 26, 2007 | 12:30 PM
  #5  
mjshira's Avatar
mjshira
Rennlist Member
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 573
Likes: 2
From: Hermosa Beach, CA
Default

reading this makes me want to learn more about Porsche engine building and tuning related to Motec. Is there a book that is somewhat related that I can start reading to learn more?

Thanks
Reply
Old Dec 26, 2007 | 12:51 PM
  #6  
Geoffrey's Avatar
Geoffrey
Thread Starter
Nordschleife Master
20 Year Member
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 8,305
Likes: 16
From: Kingston, NY
Default

There are several resources for you. There are a number of books on tuning fuel injection at Barnes and Noble. You can attend one of the EFI classes which gives you theory (EFI101) and Practical experience (EFI Advanced). Information can be found at www.efi101.com. I helped put some of the material together and have taught the classes on the east coast.
Reply
Old Dec 26, 2007 | 01:30 PM
  #7  
TR6's Avatar
TR6
Drifting
15 Year Member
 
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 3,441
Likes: 1
From: Dallas/FortWorth Texas
Default

Wow, Geoffrey. That has got to be the dream 964 engine that you are going to build. I don't even want to think about how much money it would cost to duplicate your engine (knowing what I just spent rebuilding my own 964 to more stock specs)....
Reply
Old Dec 26, 2007 | 02:31 PM
  #8  
mjshira's Avatar
mjshira
Rennlist Member
 
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 573
Likes: 2
From: Hermosa Beach, CA
Default

thanks Geoffrey!
Reply
Rennlist Stories

The Best Porsche Posts for Porsche Enthusiasts

story-0

Porsche 911 GT3 Artisan Edition Pays Homage to Japanese Culture

 Verdad Gallardo
story-1

Porsche Reveals Coupe Variant of the Electric Cayenne With a Fresh Look

 Verdad Gallardo
story-2

10 Porsche Colors That Have More Personality Than Most People

 Verdad Gallardo
story-3

Guntherwerks' Final Speedster Creation Is the Ultimate Porsche Restomod

 Verdad Gallardo
story-4

10 Reasons I Hate Going to the Porsche Dealership (& the 1 Reason I Stay)

 Joe Kucinski
story-5

Porsche Shakes Up The Nürburgring Lap Record Table Once Again

 Verdad Gallardo
story-6

6 Ways the Porsche 911 GT3 S/C Redefines Performance

 Joe Kucinski
story-7

10 Wildest Homologation Specials Porsche Ever Sold

 Verdad Gallardo
story-8

Super Rare RUF BTR III Comes Out of Hibernation, Looking For a New Home

 Verdad Gallardo
story-9

10 Porsche Opinions That Can Start a Fight

 Joe Kucinski
Old Dec 26, 2007 | 05:55 PM
  #9  
Larry Herman's Avatar
Larry Herman
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,430
Likes: 2
From: Columbus, NJ
Default

So what are you doing with your current P&Cs?
__________________
Larry Herman
2016 Ford Transit Connect Titanium LWB
2018 Tesla Model 3 - Electricity can be fun!
Retired Club Racer & National PCA Instructor
Past Flames:
1994 RS America Club Racer
2004 GT3 Track Car
1984 911 Carrera Club Racer
1974 914/4 2.0 Track Car

CLICK HERE to see some of my ancient racing videos.

Reply
Old Dec 26, 2007 | 07:40 PM
  #10  
Geoffrey's Avatar
Geoffrey
Thread Starter
Nordschleife Master
20 Year Member
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 8,305
Likes: 16
From: Kingston, NY
Default

So what are you doing with your current P&Cs?
Thinking of going racing in GT4???
Reply
Old Dec 26, 2007 | 08:10 PM
  #11  
Larry Herman's Avatar
Larry Herman
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,430
Likes: 2
From: Columbus, NJ
Default

Originally Posted by Geoffrey
Thinking of going racing in GT4???
Maybe for 2009. I want to run this season in H and see what kind of competition I will have. Then I might seriously look at moving up to GT4. The only thing that I would really need is a motor and a racing ABS unit, at least to start with.
Reply
Old Dec 26, 2007 | 08:17 PM
  #12  
Geoffrey's Avatar
Geoffrey
Thread Starter
Nordschleife Master
20 Year Member
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 8,305
Likes: 16
From: Kingston, NY
Default

Well, that, and a properly geared transmission for an 8k engine, GT2 Evo uprights for proper roll center and bump steer management.
Reply
Old Dec 26, 2007 | 08:26 PM
  #13  
Larry Herman's Avatar
Larry Herman
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,430
Likes: 2
From: Columbus, NJ
Default

I have a 39,000 mile stock motor sitting in my garage. Maybe you should just build a new one from my core and sell me your old one?
Reply
Old Dec 26, 2007 | 08:28 PM
  #14  
Geoffrey's Avatar
Geoffrey
Thread Starter
Nordschleife Master
20 Year Member
 
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 8,305
Likes: 16
From: Kingston, NY
Default

We could do that, but I think that you might want to consider a 3.6l engine which allows you to run at2677 rather than 2785 with a 3.8l
Reply
Old Dec 26, 2007 | 08:43 PM
  #15  
Larry Herman's Avatar
Larry Herman
Rennlist
Basic Site Sponsor
 
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 10,430
Likes: 2
From: Columbus, NJ
Default

The 3.8L formula allows me to pretty much leave most of my car intact, and so easily convertible back to a prepared class racer. I guess that once I see how this season shakes out, I will be in a better position to determine where I want to be.
Reply



All times are GMT -3. The time now is 08:58 AM.

story-0
Porsche 911 GT3 Artisan Edition Pays Homage to Japanese Culture

Slideshow: Porsche has created a Japan-only 911 GT3 Artisan Edition that blends track-ready hardware with design cues inspired by traditional Japanese craftsmanship.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-28 19:37:40


VIEW MORE
story-1
Porsche Reveals Coupe Variant of the Electric Cayenne With a Fresh Look

Slideshow: Porsche's latest electric Cayenne Coupe blends dramatic styling with supercar acceleration, turning the brand's midsize SUV into a 1,139-horsepower flagship.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-27 19:39:30


VIEW MORE
story-2
10 Porsche Colors That Have More Personality Than Most People

Slideshow: Porsche's wildest paint colors aren't just shades-they're full-blown personalities on four wheels.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-27 19:38:13


VIEW MORE
story-3
Guntherwerks' Final Speedster Creation Is the Ultimate Porsche Restomod

Slideshow: The last of the Speedsters doesn't just close a chapter, it makes quite the bold, air-cooled statement.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-22 17:55:04


VIEW MORE
story-4
10 Reasons I Hate Going to the Porsche Dealership (& the 1 Reason I Stay)

Slideshow: Going to a Porsche dealership may not be the dream experience you expect it to be and these are the reasons why.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-04-21 13:54:19


VIEW MORE
story-5
Porsche Shakes Up The Nürburgring Lap Record Table Once Again

Slideshow: Porsche just proved-again-that precision engineering can outrun brute force at the Nürburgring.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-18 20:27:02


VIEW MORE
story-6
6 Ways the Porsche 911 GT3 S/C Redefines Performance

Slideshow: Six reasons why you will love the Porsche 911 GT3 S/C and 1 reason you will hate it.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-04-14 10:21:39


VIEW MORE
story-7
10 Wildest Homologation Specials Porsche Ever Sold

Slideshow: Some of the most desirable Porsche models are those that were sold to the public solely for homologation purposes.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-08 09:54:26


VIEW MORE
story-8
Super Rare RUF BTR III Comes Out of Hibernation, Looking For a New Home

Slideshow: The lone BTR III-spec Targa features rare RUF engineering with a 430-hp turbo flat-six and fewer than 30 miles since its rebuild.

By Verdad Gallardo | 2026-04-06 20:03:25


VIEW MORE
story-9
10 Porsche Opinions That Can Start a Fight

Slideshow: If you want to start a debate with a Porsche friend, these 10 opinions are a great way to get started.

By Joe Kucinski | 2026-04-02 16:53:02


VIEW MORE