kgorman

Is corner balancing and alignment something I can DIY? I know I need some scales. How many of you guys are doing it yourself? How many times would I need to do it to save on costs? I guess I would need to set my camber and all of that as well. Sounds complex.

Jasko

Kgorman - I think that the problem is getting the up and down from the scales to the air and back several times while you are making the adjustments. I was able to observe my mechanic using the string method with a lift and scales, and it took 5-6 times up and down to get it right. Without a lift, I think that it may be too labor intensive. The car has to come up for the adjustment, then down to settle (back and forth a bit to get the suspension to settle), take the measurements, then back up for another adjustment, and so forth.
The fronts are easier than the backs - Camber is set with the struts and toeout/in with the tie rods.
In the back - the inner trailing arm makes the adjustment - this was much more "touchy" as while there is a separate "nut" for camber and toe, a change in one would effect both camber and toe in different ways. It took many small adjustments back and forth to get it right.
Corner balance was much easier to do.
Not that its not possible, it just looked like more than I had patience for to do at home (and I have alot of patience). Especially while it took my guy 2-3 hours with a lift.
Also, it was not something that I wanted to be thinking about while on the track - ie did I get it right, etc.

Dave

Red rooster

If you just take a look at the tolerances on alignment , no chance of DIY.

Without a proper 4 wheel aligner and a guy who knows what he is doing, other methods are a complete waste of time !!

The difference with a real ,factory spec job done is amazing .

Just my $0.02

Geoff

garrett376

For me it wasn't a waste of time to do it myself - saved me a lot considering I've done it 3 separate times in the past year - once upon installation, second time to get more camber, and third time with a revalved/resprung suspension. At $400 a pop with the local guy, that's quite a savings! As you all can probably figure out by now, I don't have the budget (or desire) to have other people work on my cars! (or is it trust?? - going 145mph in a corner with concrete walls not far off, I need to know the bolts are tight! )

With a laser level, ruler, chalk and a protractor, I could do the front and rear camber to where I am happy.

Driving on and off the scales to corner balance is a lot of work, as is jacking up the car, making the adjustment, driving around the block to settle the suspension, then back on the scales - a lot of work, that's for sure - I think it took me 6 iterations (maybe 5) to get it right. The corner balance is the easy part, actually. The factory manual has a target range specified for right/left weigth differential that is not that hard to get. Start at the correct ride height per the factory manual, then adjust the corner weights.

For me, the DIY version has worked just fine - car handles superb - predictable under all situations (braking, acceleration), and tire wear is excellent (especially versus before where I didn't have enough negative camber). For the last round of suspension work I did, I did not corner balance the car - I just set it to the proper heights. If I get time at the track with some scales (which they have to weigh us at impound) I'll fiddle to get it better. I know guys who corner weight their cars differently for different tracks to take advantage of varied layouts! Worth a few tenths of a second they say.

I think it's relative to your expectations - Geoff might think my car handles like a shopping cart! But as long as it feels good to me, and the tires wear as well as they do considering my 2900lb beast beats them up, I have attained my goal!

kgorman

Interesting. Well for track work shouldn't we all be able to do this? For instance, play with our camber and such? What do the big bucks cup car doods do?

good points Jasko/Rooster.

Couple of items came up when searching:
http://members.rennlist.com/captearlg/928%20ALIGN.HTML
https://rennlist.com/forums/showthre...=alignment+diy

kgorman

Garrett, thanks for the info. I am kinda in the same situation. I want to switch out to firmer springs and revalved shocks and I am trying to get a handle on costs. An alignment is actually a bit part of the equation. How did you know what to do for the alignment? Is it in some manual? Any tool expenses? Sounds like you didn't purchase scales.

garrett376

The alignment was not difficult for me - for the track car, that is. To be honest for my street car, I will pay the $300 for an alignment (don't need to corner balance that car) since I'll have the tires for many years and they cost a lot more than the track tires. For the track car, I needed maximum camber in the front and rear since in this heavy car I was wearing the heck out of the outsides of the front and rear tires. Plus, on high speed turns, I had really poor traction (from using only 1/2 to 1/3 of the tire!). Now with max camber in the front and rear, tire wear is great and handling is great. The 964 in the rear is funny - same setup as my 65 911 race car, actually. In order to max the rear negative camber, you have to increase the toe-in, which has been fine. Since I can't get too much negative camber, I just peg one side, then match the other to it so they're even. I check this via a laser level and markings on the concrete between straight up and down (true vertical) and the angle at which the tire leans. This gives a measurement (short side of the right triangle) that you can compare from left to right. If you remember your geometry equations, you can figure out that angle using a little sine and cosine functions. So, only special tool was my costco laser level, and my 8th grade geometry book (just kidding, I don't still have that!). If you just change the struts, the rear alignment won't change other than ride height. But you'll likely need more rear camber... our C4's need it to use all the tire (I run 255/40's in the rear).

I did borrow scales from someone at first - if I could get a hold of the guy again, I'd use them to balance the car with the new suspension setup like it was before. But it's fine right now - I have another race in 3 weeks and I'm just adding gas! But again, to each their own - I enjoy doing it myself

Jasko

Garrett - how do you measure the toe in for the rear and the toe out for front - Strings?

MarkD

I have heard conversations around Smart Strings and Smart Camber as an accurate solution for DIY align. I know I found them listed on another site, I think for less... (no affil.) but here is one:
http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/smart1.htm

ah, found it (too many links saved!): http://www.smartracingproducts.com/alignment.htm
Same price though.
Looks like that link is already in the one posted above... nevermind!

I almost pulled the trigger on the Smart Strings and Camber tools... then I figured for a street car I wouldn't be doing an align. very often so no ROI.
No I wish I had after my experience at the p-car dealer...
Scales are another story... $$$

Red rooster

Guys,
For track use MAYBE have a go at alignment. For the road you will be missing out big time.
The problem stems from the fact that a 911 has a pretty short wheelbase but wide track.Just check on some alignment data and take real note of the +- tolerance numbers , around 1/3 of a "normal " car .A piece of string really doesnt cut it.
Porsche didnt get there for laughs , it really does matter.

A real alignment job first dials out the runout on each wheel.Just jack a wheel and spin it . The smallest lateral wobble will affect accuracy so the computer measures it and compensates.
Having done that a true center line is established for each wheel to be referenced too, as each wheel is seperately adjustable for toe and camber .

Then camber and toe are set.
Front is pretty straightfoward . The rear is a PIA because adjusting toe affects camber and visa versa.

If corner weights are being done , that is the very first job , but if big camber changes are being made will need to be redone after alignment !!!

A company I owned had a Beissparth ( factory spec )4 wheel aligner so my C4 got this once a year minimum and adjustments were always necessary .
A few serious bumps in the road will move things around.The guy doing the job was a wizard !

Sorry to preach but the difference between a properly set up 911 and a front end tire bay, drive in job, are just night and day.

Thats why the idea of a road car DIY alignment I find hilarious.
Much more to be gained by taking the wife out for a meal !!

Garretts racer is a whole different situation, though maybe a investment in a really low cost piece of alignment gear would be an investment ??

Sorry if this sounds a bit heavy but DIY could be fatal . These cars are fast !!!

All the best

Geoff

garrett376

That's very interesting how it was always needing adjustments, Geoff, even on a yearly basis! I was going to wait until I got new tires for my daily driver, but sounds like I should do it sooner, based on how everything else was out of adjustment on this car!


Agreed!!

Laurence Gibbs

Sorry Red but i disagree. The accuracy developed by string alignment is more than good enough, typically 0.5mm or less can be achieved. The reason the machine aligners were invented was speed and simplicity. A string set up will get to Porsches specs no problem. A properly set up string system will be able to set the car to correct thrust angle too. Many Porsche Race teams still use strings to set there cars up , even new Carrera Cup cars, go to a carrera cup race and take a look in the pit lane. The level of accuracy needed for a race car is almost always greater than a road car. The downside to using strings is time, settting up and taking ,measurements is a far longer process. I was at a very respected German tuner recently and up on his scales was a very nice 997 the car was being set up with strings. They also had a laser aligner but i was told they prefered to use the strings!
If you have the time and patients not to mention the room to do the job then diy alignment is very rewarding . And will give accurate reliable results. Over time there is also a money saving to be had.

Red rooster

Laurence,
Your observations dont suprise me at all !! In accuracy terms a string computer doesnt stand a chance !!
A computer 4 wheel aligner uses a dedicated , perfectley level lift . Try lugging that around to circuits and setting it up! Round about a ton in weight !!

I had a race team for a few years and at circuits we used a neat little system that involved measuring heads and STRING ! For race work , more than good enough to make last minute tweaks on a car that you knew was spot on.
Big plus was it could go in a truck along with all the other stuff.

I have come across plenty of examples of " stick with the old ways !!" from guys who really should know better.If that same German company got out a wooden rule to measure your cylinder bores I guess you would not be impressed !

The point I was making is that 911s , in particular, are very critical for geometry set up . I understand that it can be tough to find a shop that has the right equipment and knows how to use it. All part of the world we live in !

For example if you have a rim that is very slightly twisted - and they all are to some degree- there is a real possibility of aligning your wheels to a worse setting than if you just left it all alone !! unless you have a way of compensating. Getting to that geometrically perfect centerline of the car is also pretty hard with string !! Real danger of a bananna setup !

In the end all I can report is that having the complete geometry set to factory / personal specification maybe every year ,can transform the feel of the car and does good things for tire wear !

Sorry to go on about this but when you have practical experience of this stuff its tough to just sit silent !!


All the very best

Geoff