Last Try: Anyone replace DMF with 89 setup?
02-06-2006, 11:48 AM
#1
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Last Try: Anyone replace DMF with 89 setup?
One last try before I drop this theory into the '964 urban myth' category.
Has anyone actually installed the 1989 single mass flywheel/clutch setup to replace their dual mass flywheel/clutch?
Kirk
02-06-2006, 04:00 PM
#2
Three Wheelin'
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Location: Halifax, Nova Scotia , Canada
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Kirk,
You are not having a lot of luck !! I cannot directly answer your question as I have only replaced my 89 C4 clutch ! I did think about fitting a dual mass ? but realised that the 89 belhousing/starter would make this a PIA !!
I am sure someone doing clutches as a routine job can answer.
I have always believed that the RS clutch is a 89 with a spring loaded plate .
If I am right then it should be no problem.
If there is no one on Rennlist that knows, I will call one of my Porsche trade buddies in the UK and get an answer for you!!
Persist !!!!
All the best
Geoff
You are not having a lot of luck !! I cannot directly answer your question as I have only replaced my 89 C4 clutch ! I did think about fitting a dual mass ? but realised that the 89 belhousing/starter would make this a PIA !!
I am sure someone doing clutches as a routine job can answer.
I have always believed that the RS clutch is a 89 with a spring loaded plate .
If I am right then it should be no problem.
If there is no one on Rennlist that knows, I will call one of my Porsche trade buddies in the UK and get an answer for you!!
Persist !!!!
All the best
Geoff
02-06-2006, 07:26 PM
#3
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Geoff,
Well if you have any resources left to verify this, I would welcome it. Otherwise I am going to send the parts back to sunset and order up the DMF parts. (Who would have thought I should have checked the model year of my transmission before ordering?!?!)
I suspect the parts should work, but without knowing what they changed in the bellhousing area its hard to tell for sure without mounting the throwout bearing and having an 89 starter. (And with all the other $$ i am spending on this rebuild I don't feel like experimenting)
Thanx
Kirk
Well if you have any resources left to verify this, I would welcome it. Otherwise I am going to send the parts back to sunset and order up the DMF parts. (Who would have thought I should have checked the model year of my transmission before ordering?!?!)
I suspect the parts should work, but without knowing what they changed in the bellhousing area its hard to tell for sure without mounting the throwout bearing and having an 89 starter. (And with all the other $$ i am spending on this rebuild I don't feel like experimenting)
Thanx
Kirk
02-06-2006, 09:16 PM
#4
Three Wheelin'
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Kirk,
So you have a post 90 gearbox that has the 90 on , starter . OK , I will ask two or three guys I know and lets get you an answer!
I am suprised that none of the "experts "in the USA knows the answer to such a straightfoward question. I understand your frustration.Hmmmmm.
All the best
Geoff
So you have a post 90 gearbox that has the 90 on , starter . OK , I will ask two or three guys I know and lets get you an answer!
I am suprised that none of the "experts "in the USA knows the answer to such a straightfoward question. I understand your frustration.Hmmmmm.
All the best
Geoff
02-06-2006, 09:58 PM
#5
Technical Guru
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
When I called & emailed around the USA asking this same question most shops (including some big ones that should have known) had no clue a MWF even existed! Of course I didn't have much luck with anyone at PAG in Germany either (PCNA is usually pretty good about getting emails to the right person in Germany).
02-07-2006, 02:27 AM
#6
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Yep.
If the 89 clutch parts will work in a DMF transmission, I will buy the 89 starter to complete the setup.
If not I will reorder the dmf parts.
I am surprised by the whole issue, I thought alot of other people had already gone down this road.
Kirk
If the 89 clutch parts will work in a DMF transmission, I will buy the 89 starter to complete the setup.
If not I will reorder the dmf parts.
I am surprised by the whole issue, I thought alot of other people had already gone down this road.
Kirk
02-07-2006, 03:56 PM
#7
Three Wheelin'
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Kirk,
The general view is that it is OK to fit your 89 clutch parts .You will also need an 89 crank reference sensor bracket 964.101.187.00 and a 89 starter.
This is because the 60 minus two teeth reference ring is further foward on the 89 flywheel.Be sure to use ALL 89 bits !!
As a summary , the original 89 clutch arranement was a derivative of the 3.2/g50 . The addition was the sensor ring for motronic use.
When the dual mass flywheel came along the starter ring had to be moved a long way foward so a starter with the shaft supported by the bellhousing had to be used.The bell housing was redesigned for this different starter .
So , bottom line is that you can put an 89 set up in a later bell housing but you cannot put a dual mass in a 89 bellhousing !!
The question that I have for you is why are you doing this ? I know your 964 needs a clutch but what is wrong with the flywheel you have ? I think it may be a US made conversion flywheel so no part numbers ?
Reading some of your past posts I think your C4 has stalling issues so have you done a weight comparison with the 89 flywheel ?
If they are the same then maybe a dual mass is the way to go !!
If I were in your situation I would sit back and have a think before rushing into any decision.
The general view is that it is OK to fit your 89 clutch parts .You will also need an 89 crank reference sensor bracket 964.101.187.00 and a 89 starter.
This is because the 60 minus two teeth reference ring is further foward on the 89 flywheel.Be sure to use ALL 89 bits !!
As a summary , the original 89 clutch arranement was a derivative of the 3.2/g50 . The addition was the sensor ring for motronic use.
When the dual mass flywheel came along the starter ring had to be moved a long way foward so a starter with the shaft supported by the bellhousing had to be used.The bell housing was redesigned for this different starter .
So , bottom line is that you can put an 89 set up in a later bell housing but you cannot put a dual mass in a 89 bellhousing !!
The question that I have for you is why are you doing this ? I know your 964 needs a clutch but what is wrong with the flywheel you have ? I think it may be a US made conversion flywheel so no part numbers ?
Reading some of your past posts I think your C4 has stalling issues so have you done a weight comparison with the 89 flywheel ?
If they are the same then maybe a dual mass is the way to go !!
If I were in your situation I would sit back and have a think before rushing into any decision.
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02-07-2006, 05:36 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
The short story is:
-My car had a lightweight flywheel installed, and it sucked so I wanted to change it out. (early 911 DMEs do not stabilize the idle well)
-I own an 89 car so I bought 89 clutch parts (after a ton of work to get the correct part numbers because 89s are different than all other years)
-I got the parts and realized I had an 'L' series transmission(DMF) instead of a 'K' series (89)
-I will lose $$ by sending the parts back across the US border.
However, now that I know I will have to change both the reference sensor bracket and the starter I can make a decision on whether to install the DMF setup or order the other 89 pieces.
Thank you very much for finding out the additional info for me!
To answer a couple of your other questions, after comparing a picture of my flywheel and Jason Andreas's, I believe my setup was a stock RS setup. The flywheels only have ink part numbers and they wear off quickly.
-The weight of the 1989 flywheel is the same as the RS flywheel. However the 1989 pressure plate weighs more, so it has a rotating mass somewhere between the RS and the DMF. (check at the bottomn of the PDFs i posted above, I marked the rotating mass of all three setups)
-And finally the stalling issues I believe are more evident on 964s with early DMEs (The 911 part numbered ones)
And now I think I know all that I want to know about 964 clutches!
When I get home from work this week I will check the part number of the reference bracket currently installed in my car. I am sure it will be the one used with DMF (and RS setups)
Kirk
-My car had a lightweight flywheel installed, and it sucked so I wanted to change it out. (early 911 DMEs do not stabilize the idle well)
-I own an 89 car so I bought 89 clutch parts (after a ton of work to get the correct part numbers because 89s are different than all other years)
-I got the parts and realized I had an 'L' series transmission(DMF) instead of a 'K' series (89)
-I will lose $$ by sending the parts back across the US border.
However, now that I know I will have to change both the reference sensor bracket and the starter I can make a decision on whether to install the DMF setup or order the other 89 pieces.
Thank you very much for finding out the additional info for me!
To answer a couple of your other questions, after comparing a picture of my flywheel and Jason Andreas's, I believe my setup was a stock RS setup. The flywheels only have ink part numbers and they wear off quickly.
-The weight of the 1989 flywheel is the same as the RS flywheel. However the 1989 pressure plate weighs more, so it has a rotating mass somewhere between the RS and the DMF. (check at the bottomn of the PDFs i posted above, I marked the rotating mass of all three setups)
-And finally the stalling issues I believe are more evident on 964s with early DMEs (The 911 part numbered ones)
And now I think I know all that I want to know about 964 clutches!
When I get home from work this week I will check the part number of the reference bracket currently installed in my car. I am sure it will be the one used with DMF (and RS setups)
Kirk
02-08-2006, 05:57 PM
#9
Three Wheelin'
Thread Starter
Ok,
I contacted Sunset, and I will return the 89 parts and they will send out the DMF parts.
This seemed like the simplest solution to the problem.
I get to keep my existing starter (which is only a year old), and if I ever want to put the RS setup back in, the DMF pressure plate matches.
It will be about 6 weeks to get delivery. But it doesnt really matter because the motor is going to be apart for a lot longer than that.
Kirk
I contacted Sunset, and I will return the 89 parts and they will send out the DMF parts.
This seemed like the simplest solution to the problem.
I get to keep my existing starter (which is only a year old), and if I ever want to put the RS setup back in, the DMF pressure plate matches.
It will be about 6 weeks to get delivery. But it doesnt really matter because the motor is going to be apart for a lot longer than that.
Kirk
