Why the 964's "ugly duckling" label?
05-09-2002, 09:48 PM
#46
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Hey FF,
FWIW, it was the "authority" (and MikeF
) that concluded the '94 was best, not myself. But, I know what you meant.
The 964 seems to be on the defensive so often--especially when compared to the 993. It's a nice change to see it getting recognition for a desirable quality.
I do think it's safe to say that production technique/material quality changes with the 993--whatever they were--were relatively modest. Which can't be said for the 996, a whole different car altogether. I also think it's safe to say that something--however subtle--had to "give" in order for Porsche to be able to sell the 993 for $5k less than the 964.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
FWIW, it was the "authority" (and MikeF
) that concluded the '94 was best, not myself. But, I know what you meant.The 964 seems to be on the defensive so often--especially when compared to the 993. It's a nice change to see it getting recognition for a desirable quality.
I do think it's safe to say that production technique/material quality changes with the 993--whatever they were--were relatively modest. Which can't be said for the 996, a whole different car altogether. I also think it's safe to say that something--however subtle--had to "give" in order for Porsche to be able to sell the 993 for $5k less than the 964.
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />
05-09-2002, 10:06 PM
#47
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I've had an 80 SC Targa, a 90C2 Cab Tip, a 91 C4, and currently have a 99 Boxter and an 02 TTX50. The quality of the mid-80's to early 90's cars is beyond dispute. My 91 C4 stayed tight an reliable thru 100,000 miles when I sold it to a very well-to-do architect who loves it as much as I. That being said, there is nothing wrong with the quality of the 996 tt. The materials look and feel great. No squeaks or rattles, and everything works. The difference is that the 964 was built with an attitude of "we'll spend anything it takes" and the 996 was designed to be built at a cost. I couldn't fall in love with the 996 C2, but the ttx50 is definitely the prom queen. AS
05-10-2002, 11:39 AM
#48
Stickin' my nose in again but-
I'm not defensive about by '86 vs a 993, why should I be, it's a heel of a ride and it costs about 1/3 at current prices.
A 993 is a better car than a 964 but is it worth twice as much? I doubt it.
I'm not defensive about by '86 vs a 993, why should I be, it's a heel of a ride and it costs about 1/3 at current prices.
A 993 is a better car than a 964 but is it worth twice as much? I doubt it.
05-10-2002, 01:22 PM
#49
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Gentlemen for my five cents now!
I drove a 1994 993 C2 yesterday. Compared to my 1991 C2 it felt a bit slugish i.e weak, maybe because of the six speed gearbox and the 272HP (Now I have to test a 285HP version to compare
). I think the car lost a lot of the bestiality of the 964 (even if the 964 is much more civilized in comparision with a 911 3.2 with 915 Gearbox). The 993 I drove had less Km's than my 964 but the interior was some sort of scruffy, even if the owner (a friend) is very precotionous. For the look now. Yes the 993 looks great and yes it looks tremendous 3/4 from behind, but I fell in love with the pure lines of my C2 and I must admit I'm totally partial about it.
To all 964 owners <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> Thomas
I drove a 1994 993 C2 yesterday. Compared to my 1991 C2 it felt a bit slugish i.e weak, maybe because of the six speed gearbox and the 272HP (Now I have to test a 285HP version to compare
). I think the car lost a lot of the bestiality of the 964 (even if the 964 is much more civilized in comparision with a 911 3.2 with 915 Gearbox). The 993 I drove had less Km's than my 964 but the interior was some sort of scruffy, even if the owner (a friend) is very precotionous. For the look now. Yes the 993 looks great and yes it looks tremendous 3/4 from behind, but I fell in love with the pure lines of my C2 and I must admit I'm totally partial about it.To all 964 owners <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> Thomas
05-10-2002, 04:26 PM
#50
Wow, this is a hot topic. Since I've recently gone through the purchase process and was willing to look at any coupe from the '87 3.2l to the '98 993, I learned quite a bit. I looked at an '88 coupe '89 coupe, a couple of RS Americas, and several 993s. In the end, I bought a 993. Here's why.
First, all of these cars look wonderful. There truly is no substitute. But at the end of the day, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I like the look of the 993. Even a plain vanilla 993 coupe has an incredible, hunkered down presence and classic Porsche curves. Mine is lowered, which adds to the look (and feel).
Second, cost was an issue (after all, I ended up buying the "bottom of the barrel", not an S, or a C4 or turbo) but not a huge issue.
Third, I disagree with those individuals that state that the 964 gets an undeserved bad rap for reliability. Every knowledgeable person I spoke with warned me about the high cost of maintaining a 964, relative to a 3.2l Carrera or a 993. This included the top Porsche reseller in our area (he will not sell 964s, period), a highly respected Porsche mechanic (who's business includes not only servicing of street cars but also building race cars; he's been in business since 1970), and a friend, who owns a 964. Last time I spoke to him he was having a problem with his car stalling when he drove it in the rain. It is a recurring problem that has yet to be fixed. He is a meticulous individual in all that he does, including the servicing of his car.
So, at the end of the day, there was far too much "noise" regarding the 964 in my hunt to ignore. Now, maybe it's a function of our climate or road conditions here; I don't know. But it did result in me taking the 964 out of the equation.
That said, I'll probably find myself eating my words with a big repair bill, now that I've sung the praises of the 993!
First, all of these cars look wonderful. There truly is no substitute. But at the end of the day, beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I like the look of the 993. Even a plain vanilla 993 coupe has an incredible, hunkered down presence and classic Porsche curves. Mine is lowered, which adds to the look (and feel).
Second, cost was an issue (after all, I ended up buying the "bottom of the barrel", not an S, or a C4 or turbo) but not a huge issue.
Third, I disagree with those individuals that state that the 964 gets an undeserved bad rap for reliability. Every knowledgeable person I spoke with warned me about the high cost of maintaining a 964, relative to a 3.2l Carrera or a 993. This included the top Porsche reseller in our area (he will not sell 964s, period), a highly respected Porsche mechanic (who's business includes not only servicing of street cars but also building race cars; he's been in business since 1970), and a friend, who owns a 964. Last time I spoke to him he was having a problem with his car stalling when he drove it in the rain. It is a recurring problem that has yet to be fixed. He is a meticulous individual in all that he does, including the servicing of his car.
So, at the end of the day, there was far too much "noise" regarding the 964 in my hunt to ignore. Now, maybe it's a function of our climate or road conditions here; I don't know. But it did result in me taking the 964 out of the equation.
That said, I'll probably find myself eating my words with a big repair bill, now that I've sung the praises of the 993!
05-10-2002, 07:48 PM
#51
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I guess we all have to/have desided what's best in our opinion (of course, money is an issue too). After all, there are plenty of guys who thinks 356 is the last real Porsche.
I went through 87-89 911s, 964s and 993 really was out of my budget (I though if I want to have 993, I have to sell my 1973 911, naturally didn't want to do that!), but when I drove 993s too, there was no looking back for me, I just had to have it (993).
There was nothing wrong with 964 & I like it very, very much, but IMO, 993 feels better, looks better, handles better & it being last air-cooled 911 means quite a bit to me too (I'll be driving this particular car as long as I'm able to drive).
To me, there was no choise anymore...
And yes, 911 is still in my garage!
I had to 'squeeze my *****' little more (because it was over my budget) but I'm happy I did it (even though my voice is really high now!) <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
Like I said, these are my opinions and there are other's opinions too, so let's not anyone get offended,OK? After all, even though I don't get it, I know there are people who like Budweiser! <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />
I went through 87-89 911s, 964s and 993 really was out of my budget (I though if I want to have 993, I have to sell my 1973 911, naturally didn't want to do that!), but when I drove 993s too, there was no looking back for me, I just had to have it (993).
There was nothing wrong with 964 & I like it very, very much, but IMO, 993 feels better, looks better, handles better & it being last air-cooled 911 means quite a bit to me too (I'll be driving this particular car as long as I'm able to drive).
To me, there was no choise anymore...
And yes, 911 is still in my garage!
I had to 'squeeze my *****' little more (because it was over my budget) but I'm happy I did it (even though my voice is really high now!) <img src="graemlins/crying.gif" border="0" alt="[crying]" />
Like I said, these are my opinions and there are other's opinions too, so let's not anyone get offended,OK? After all, even though I don't get it, I know there are people who like Budweiser!
<img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />
05-10-2002, 08:18 PM
#52
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[quote]Originally posted by Flying Finn:
<strong>***snip***
After all, even though I don't get it, I know there are people who like Budweiser! <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Hopefully not on this board!
<strong>***snip***
After all, even though I don't get it, I know there are people who like Budweiser!
<img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>Hopefully not on this board!
05-10-2002, 08:48 PM
#54
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[quote]Originally posted by MikeF:
<strong>I like Budweiser... <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Holy crap, an embarrassment to 964 owners everywhere!
(of course, all in good fun)
<strong>I like Budweiser... <img src="graemlins/drink.gif" border="0" alt="[cherrsagai]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>
Holy crap, an embarrassment to 964 owners everywhere!
(of course, all in good fun)
05-10-2002, 10:47 PM
#56
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The 964 (1990 Cab.) is my fourth 911. The previous ones 1967 911S, 1975 911S, 1979 911SC and now the C2.
After putting a 2.7 RS spec. engine and Konis in the '75 it was just about the best driving car I've ever seen.
The 964 feels a bit heavy compared to my earlier cars, but the A/C (without that mess under the hood) and the stout tranny sure are nice! My wife likes the original fender lines and headlights best also.
After putting a 2.7 RS spec. engine and Konis in the '75 it was just about the best driving car I've ever seen.
The 964 feels a bit heavy compared to my earlier cars, but the A/C (without that mess under the hood) and the stout tranny sure are nice! My wife likes the original fender lines and headlights best also.
05-10-2002, 11:03 PM
#57
Hey, I live in Georgia. When it's hot and I'm thirsty a cold Bud taste's pretty darned good. If you ladies don't like Bud...what the heck are you drinking on a hot day...Chardonnay?
<img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />
Note: Aforementioned reference to the effeminate beverage preference of fellow board members is issued with the utmost respect and admiration. I admittedly enjoy a good Black & Tan occasionally but give me a cold Bud at the end of a long hot day at Road Atlanta anytime.
<img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />
Note: Aforementioned reference to the effeminate beverage preference of fellow board members is issued with the utmost respect and admiration. I admittedly enjoy a good Black & Tan occasionally but give me a cold Bud at the end of a long hot day at Road Atlanta anytime.
05-11-2002, 12:04 AM
#58
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[quote]Originally posted by MikeF:
<strong>Hey, I live in Georgia. When it's hot and I'm thirsty a cold Bud taste's pretty darned good. If you ladies don't like Bud...what the heck are you drinking on a hot day...Chardonnay?
<img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />
****snip****</strong><hr></blockquote>
Tasty stuff, 7.1%ALC/VOL .... pretty good by U.S. standards.
Oh yeah,
<img src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" border="0" alt="[offtopic]" />
<strong>Hey, I live in Georgia. When it's hot and I'm thirsty a cold Bud taste's pretty darned good. If you ladies don't like Bud...what the heck are you drinking on a hot day...Chardonnay?
<img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />
****snip****</strong><hr></blockquote>
Tasty stuff, 7.1%ALC/VOL .... pretty good by U.S. standards.
Oh yeah,
<img src="graemlins/offtopic.gif" border="0" alt="[offtopic]" />
05-11-2002, 01:29 AM
#59
Race Car
Both 964 and 993 are good-looking cars. I find that the front fender on the 964 looks too heavy though. On the other hand, the upright lights are a plus, and are more typical of the classic Porsche look. Having said that, the absolutely best-looking Porche ever IMHO is the 1973 Carrera RS.
05-11-2002, 09:32 AM
#60
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[quote]Originally posted by MikeF:
<strong>...If you ladies don't like Bud...what the heck are you drinking on a hot day...Chardonnay?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I drink 'real' beer, one that comes from England, Finland, or Denmark? Or Mexico? There are others too.
Before they started to sell Bud in Finland, there was a way to make it: add one bottle of Finnish beer, one bottle of water = You got yourself two bottles of Budweiser! <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />
But okay, this is getting too OT, sorry, I promise I stop now.
<strong>...If you ladies don't like Bud...what the heck are you drinking on a hot day...Chardonnay?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I drink 'real' beer, one that comes from England, Finland, or Denmark? Or Mexico? There are others too.
Before they started to sell Bud in Finland, there was a way to make it: add one bottle of Finnish beer, one bottle of water = You got yourself two bottles of Budweiser!
<img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" /> But okay, this is getting too OT, sorry, I promise I stop now.