Emanuele Ferry23

"Ugly duckling" ? I' don't think so. Surely 964 is a transition car, with all pros and cons. It was designed in the worst period ever for the 911, "compressed" between the entry level 944 and the high end 928. The 911 could be either fully renewed or pensioned. Porsche chose the first solution which proved to be a winning idea. The 964 was the first step in the modern-911 philosphy :"sticking to the initial idea while making a more and more user friendly car".
Probably this revolutionary aspect of the 964 made purists call it "Ugly duckling"....

MikeF

Contradictory to many of the above posts, I think the 964 is waaaay better looking than the egg-shaped 993 and 996. I bought my 94 964 because it is the very last real, hand-made, 911 Carerra. It retains the traditional 911 appearance with the performance and refinement of the 993...at a lower price. It goes like stink, handles like a slot car, has a power top, functional AC, a great (aftermarket) stereo, and is an absolute blast on the track. It responds well to mods and thrills me more every time I drive it.

I'd never trade for a 993 or 996. They are mass produced cars and I'm reminded of it every time I sit in one (no offense). The fit and finish of the upholstery and plastic-ware can't hold a candle to my 964 supple leather innards. My 94 still smells like freshly tanned leather after 8 years. I've never had a mechanical problem and do-it-yourself projects are a pleasure.

Bruce Anderson lost a lot of credibility with me and others by dissing this marvelous car. The known ideosyncracies of the earliest versions are no different or more severe than pulled head studs, premature valve wear, wire harness fires, sloppy shifting, carbon coking, etc., of other 911 vintages. A late model 964 is a trouble-free and perfect iteration of the worlds greatest hand made sportscar that reasonable mortals can own.

OK, I'll stop here. Just one more comment to Mike (mj964).....SNAP OUT OF IT!!!!!!

Berkley

To this very day I could kick my own butt for selling my 1991 964 C2 coupe with only 29,000 miles last year....what a terrible mistake....Of all the Porsches I've had the good fortune to own in the last 30 years....the 964 was the best balance point for Porsche in my opinion....The price new killed it to some degree, I think the original owner of mine paid over $70,000 in Dec. of 1990...Ouch!

Berkley

Luke

As an outsider, I just wanted to say that I Love 964's

mj964

Thanks for the replies; gotta love the passion. So many reflected my own buying process w/ the 964: classic 911 lines, great power, and real value vs. the 993. Yeah, my DMF failed 3k after I bought it. But that was just Russian roulette -you knew it was a matter of when, not if. On the other hand, it's got no head gaskets and doesn't leak a drop.

I didn't mean to give the impression I was second guessing the car (MikeF). I love it and have never looked back. Just curious because they seem too good to merit the odd vibes I'd picked up. I didn't like Bruce Anderson's book anyway.

Thanks all!
Mike

Richard 92 C2

My Five pence worth if I may!

If you sit in your workshop and look at your car longingly (I hope this is so, otherwise you wouldnt have bought it) what feelings and thoughts do you have (without being sexual)....... Ok, Now, do YOU think your car which you paid dearly for is an " Ugly Duckling"? UH HUH I thought so !

****** Porsche 964 Rules **********

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Roygarth

IMHO from 356 to 996 all rear engine Porsches look fantastic (except for hideous slant nose jobby and recent GT2/3 with pointless boy racer aerofoils etc.)

Piers
1990 C4 Coupe

Christer

Piers

You MUST get splinters in your **** from sitting on so many fences? <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

Flying Finn

[quote]Originally posted by MikeF:
[QB]...I bought my 94 964 because it is the very last real, hand-made, 911 Carerra. It retains the traditional 911 appearance with the performance and refinement of the 993...at a lower price....I'd never trade for a 993 or 996. They are mass produced cars and I'm reminded of it every time I sit in one (no offense). The fit and finish of the upholstery and plastic-ware can't hold a candle to my 964 supple leather innards...QB]<hr></blockquote>

I thought production methods (hand-made, mass production etc.) & interior between 964 and 993 were pretty much the same. Or is there something I'm missing here? I'd like to know.

996 is a different matter, Porsche changed it's production methods with this one.

Randall G.

Hi FF,

993 production was the beginning of the Japanese influenced assembly techniques. That's why (or a major reason why) Porsche was able to sell the 993 for $5k less than its 964 predecessor. Of course, with the 996, production techniques, materials, component sharing (with the Boxster), etc. changed radically.

So, in reality, the 964 was the last 911 produced using the traditional assembly techniques. That said, I don't think the materials used on the 993 are much (any?) different from the 964, and the build quality seems pretty comparable. Certainly at least good enough to keep a lot of hard-core air-cooled purists happy.

MikeF

I agree with everything Randall said except (respectfully, of course) the materials comparison. Look at a full supple leather interior in a 964 and compare it to that of a 993. Touch it, smell it, examine it closely. It ain't the same. That $5K in price reduction didn't come because of production processes only.

Remember...it was with the 993 that Porsche began to build its profitability to stratospheric levels. Cost (and quality) of materials certainly added into the equation. It's also through this period that executives stopped speaking about making great cars in favor of making great profits. The focus and soul of the company changed and, in my humble opinion, there is evidence of this in the 993 and 996.

Just my 964 cents <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" /> .

Flying Finn

Thanks Randall, wasn't aware about that. Makes me think even more that I need to fill that 'gap' b/ween my 993 & 911 (don't try to tell this to my wife..!)

I thought they (964 & 993) were pretty much the same. What (in production methods) exactly was changed? I'm asking because I've compared my -95 993 to my -73 911 and there are so many similarities with these cars, that I think it's amazing how same they are with more than 20 years of difference!

I don't mind so much if 993 has bad leather & that kind of stuff, as long as the engine susp. & body are made for real, those are the main things in my mind.

This was confirmed by friend of mine who has worked in Porsche (Germany) over 20 years, he told me that 996 was made for 'everybody' while 993 & older cars were 'driver's cars'.

Oh, and they're all so sweet looking things!

KC993

[quote]Originally posted by Randall G.:
<strong> That said, I don't think the materials used on the 993 are much (any?) different from the 964, and the build quality seems pretty comparable. Certainly at least good enough to keep a lot of hard-core air-cooled purists happy. </strong><hr></blockquote>

Having owend a 90 C2 for 8 years and sold it at a moment of weakness and bought a 96' 993 C4, I can tell you from the heart that 964s do have better materials and build quality. I do think that Porsche cut prices for 993s by using lesser quality materials in the car, anythings that used to have 964 part numbers that now started 993 part numbers are lesser quality.
As far as the look of 964s and the Bruce Anderson comments... it's all craps... IMO, 964s still have the "original" Porsche look with the more upright headlights and more upright taillights, the narrower front fenders are more "Porsche" than the newer cars. Mr. Anderson... he may be a GURU in Porsche and expert in knowlage of the brand, but he can kiss my butt about 964 being a orphan in the Porsche world comment. He likes newer cars and always prefered newer models even the 996 water heaters. His one man's opinoins is making thousands of 964 owners suffer is truely bull craps.
<img src="graemlins/cussing.gif" border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" />

greg1234

Well, I took mine out the other day. As I walked away from it I had to look back - and it looked absolutely stunning.

And - it has no oil leaks, it starts first time every time, the battery doesn't go flat when I don't use it, the tyres don't leak air and the leather hasn't scuffed anywhere..

Pretty good for a 9 year old car...

porsche964

Personally, I believe the 964 is the best 911 model ever made. The build-quality is first rate, it handles like its on rails, it goes way fast, its a head-turner and an eye-catcher and last but not least its an absolute blast to drive. I test drove an excellent condition 3.2 before deciding to buy a 964; to me there was no contest. I prefer the appearance of the 964 over any of the later models because its style is more directly patterned after the original. Its the original 911 in its finest hour. Being so controversial also makes it the most interesting to own.