Randall G.

Mike & KC993 .... I was trying to be gracious towards our 993 owning brethren . Okay, seriously, it looks like you have more knowledge or experience with the differences than myself, so I'll defer to you guys on this one. My own experience is based on casual contact with the 993, in which the build materials appear pretty similar (on the surface at least).

FF ... I know somewhere in my collection is a full article on the production changes introduced with the 993--in particular, the Japanese influence. I looked for awhile, but I couldn't find it. One of the only things I seem to remember is automating a good amount of hand built assembly. I know Porsche laid off a lot of workers shortly before the 993 was introduced. Some of this was surely due to slow sales, but I also think some was due to greater automation of assembly.

If anyone knows what specific production techniques/materials were changed with the 993, it would be Viken.

Flying Finn

Thanks Randall,

I doubt there's so much different but it would be interesting to know.

Jay H

Randall:

I seem to remember reading a bunch on the Japanese influence at Porsche back in the mid 90's. One of the changes was switching to a Just In Time method of procuring inventory. Meaning, inventory was no longer stored on shelves, but the suppliers shipped it 'just in time' to arrive at the assembly line just when it was needed. Less inventory on the shelf meant less capital tied up (which equals less interest being paid to finance inventory, which equals more capital can be invested elsewhere for more profits).

Also, I remember the build processes were redesigned for the 993 to eliminate so much of the very costly rework that was part of every previous 911. Most (pre 993) cars had to be re-adjusted and faults fixed at the end of the assembly line after the car was built. Rework is very expensive (vs. doing it right the first time) in the manufacturing process. I can't remember the exact percent of labor that was rework on a 911, but it was very high because Porsche was very strict with quality control.

Jay
90 964

Speedraser

MikeF and KC993,
Thank you JayH!! The major changes as I recall to 993 production techniques were much as JayH stated. Porsche discovered, after nearly going belly-up, that the production techniques were costing them a fortune and NOT resulting in a better-built car. The cars came out of the factory with high quality, but this was largely due to the very high cost of fixing things at the end of production that weren't done right during production -- rework. 993 production techniques did borrow from Japanese methods, such as Just-In-Time and, importantly, a major effort to build the car properly at every stage of production so that rework would not be needed. This plus the huge reduction in inventory costs are primarily why they were able to produce cars at a lower cost -- NOT because they started using inferior materials. There was some additional automation, mostly in the areas where the hand-work resulted in less-than-desired quality -- and costly rework. The full-leather in my '95 is beautiful and soft. Yes, MikeF, it also has that great leather scent and it's only one year newer than your 964. The fit and finish is superb. I considered the 964 when I bought my 993 -- I like them a lot (RS America is my favorite 964), and my impression was and is that the quality is very comparable between the 993 and the 964.
The change in philosophy came with the 996, in my opinion, not with the 993 where the changes in production techniques resulted from an awakening to reality required to stay in business. The materials on the 996 are another story. Even the '02, which is markedly better than the earlier 996s, isn't up to the standard of build of the 964 or 993, based on my recent dealer visit.
Sorry this was so long . . .

Flying Finn

Speedracer & Jay H,

This was what I remebered hearing (J I T etc. that made building more effective & productive = cheaper to make), I actually went through some old 911 & Porsche world magazines etc. and somewhere there it was metioned that 993 was built with better quality than previous cars.

However, I don't want to make this any more away from it's original subject, IMO, 964 is not ugly duckling, quite opposite!

KC993

Ok, I will give you a few exemples of inferior materials: the front trunk carpet, the interior floor and surrounded carpet, the plastic thickness, the backseats seatback material, I also feel the headliner and the dome lights are not as good materials and not as good fits, dash not fit as tight, leathers in the 993 are softer and guess why, they are thinner. On the outside, the bumpers, tail lights and almost anywhere with plastics are all thinner(for weight saving? <img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> ), the 964 fog lights are glass and I bet you they use plastic (ABS) for $$$ reason too.
And if you guys still think I am full of it, go find a metal clip from each car and compair them. <img src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" border="0" alt="[bigbye]" />

KC993

Speedraser

Let us not forget that the 993 was sold for less than the 964 ONLY in the US because of the importance of this market.

KC -- I concede the carpet issue -- some 964s had plusher carpets than my 993. However, the dash fit and headliner fit in my 993 is perfect. The dome lights looks a lot like the ones in my '81 SC, and they fit perfectly, too. I certainly do not mind if my tail light lenses are thinner -- this is not an area where great strength is required, so why have needless extra weight? You really don't think that Porsche would make thinner something that is needlessly thick? Hollow spoke wheels, thinner glass on RSs, thinner carpets, passenger sun visors, etc. have all been used, albeit on limited production models. Similarly, I believe (could be wrong) that the 993 bumpers are made of a different material than the 964s, so comparing thickness alone reveals nothing about quality. I can't imagine that MikeF prefers the leather in his 964 because it is harder and stiffer -- less soft -- than the 993 leather. If quality really was dropping, why did Porsche strengthen the 993 crankshaft? The crank gained weight, but the vibration damper was no longer needed, so the net result was a weight savings, if I remember correctly. This doesn't sound like they didn't care about quality anymore. . . They were trying hard to save weight to offset the weight of the stronger (in torsion) and safer (all 993s meet the '97 side impact rules) structure. Thinner bumpers is fine by me.

KC -- What is your point about the metal clip? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

KC993

Todd... <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" /> buddy...

Lug nuts...the 993s' are kind of copper color not black as on the older model cars, they chipped off much easier than the old ones, maybe because of different out sourcing company who can produce the similar products for less $.

Yes, there are some area of the 993s that are better than 964s, but they are almost all performance related which I am glad no short cut was taken...

When you take off the fog light assembly there is a metal clip that clips to the bumper for the screw to screw on. That piece to me is not as thick or well made as the old ones, again maybe from different out sourcing company...

I am not talking down on 993s just compairing some of the similar items and have a opinoin on them... Like I stated before, those used to have 964 part numbers now started as 993 part numbers are IMO not as good as the old ones... <img src="graemlins/yltype.gif" border="0" alt="[typing]" /> <img src="graemlins/bigok.gif" border="0" alt="[thumbsup]" />

MikeF

Todd,

Thickness of leather has a lot to do with durability and appearance. The leather in my 8 year old 964 is crease-free and, dare I use the word....."supple". I've seen 96 and 97 993's with leather seats that are stretched, creased and worn looking as compared to my 964.

I'm sure that with tender loving care, thinner leather will look good for a long time . I appreciate the firmness and feel of my seats even if they weigh a few ounces more.

Rest assured, there is nothing "personal" intended in my opinions on this topic. Only non-biased observations which resulted from my lengthy shopping experience. I chose the latest 964 I could find for many reasons already expressed. The 993 is a great car with many engineering refinements over the 964. For the items that I personally value, I found the late 964 more to my liking. For example, I appreciate that the tail light assy's are made with heavier guage plastic (I didn't know this before reading it in this thread). This means they're less likely to crack with a small bump and may last longer. I don't mind the extra half ounce.

I prefer the dual exhaust appearance of the 993. I'm sure the balanced heavier driveshaft is an improvement, etc....just not enough to overlook the subtle qualities and charming ideosyncracies that exist in a hand-built roadster IMHO.

Bottom line, this thread is interesting enough to keep alive. Heck, I won't get my feelings hurt if you don't.

What other differences are there...besides cheap lug nuts and leather (just having a little fun) <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

Speedraser

Friends,
Not to worry -- this is an interesting thread and no one has hurt my feelings. I don't think I've hurt anyone else's, I certainly hope not. I truly like both 964s and 993s, and I don't think the 964's heavy-looking bumpers are ugly. BTW, only one of my lug nuts has chipped -- it doesn't look copper-colored underneath. Any chance this was a post-'95 change? Where is the thin leather info? Is this from personal comparison or have you seen specs? Anyway, the leather in my 993 looks virtually new. By the way, according to a friend who is in the (leather) luggage business, thinner leather is often preferred because it is softer and stays that way for longer -- of course, it is also easier to tear. Now, about those 964 stuck-on sill panels <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

Randall G.

Well, I asked a certain respected P-car authority what he knew about changes that occurred with the 993. Here is what he told me:

***********************

As to the 993's qualities or lack thereof, the truth is that changes were made during its lifespan. Aside from the obvious production line changes to supply parts as needed, the suppliers were constantly being changed as some had lower prices than others. Many "cheaper" parts were inferior in quality and failed prematurely. For instance, the '94-'95 993's came with German-made BOGE shocks while from '96-on, the supplier was Monroe in Belgium. Not that OEM BOGE's were great but the Monroe's were far inferior and didn't last as long. Another example were the exhaust manifolds and mufflers. Early cars had Bishoff mufflers and after '96 Porsche switched to Gillett. Bishoff had better quality welds and much nicer finish. This is just an example of the way parts suppliers were changed to save money along the life of the 993.

In conclusion, the early 993's were somewhat better cars (once bugs were sorted-out) than the later versions but are still substantially better and longer lasting than the newer 9x6 models. I would say that the '94 964 is probably the last of the bulletproof Porsche's but the 993 is not much worse once all the defects are addressed.

****************

As a courtesy, I've left the source anonymous. Suffice it so say that he's very knowledgeable on these issues.

I should add that I'm impressed with how everyone has managed to speak objectively, stay civil and even have some fun with this thread.

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

gerry100

Visiting from the 911 forum because although I love my Carrera, I'm already thinking ahead...

Bruce Anderson may have done a big favor for people like me, who with two kids in college next year will barely be able to hang on the the one I've got.

I think with prices suppressed by rumors and innuendo and any model specific glitches( I think every 911 iteration has them ) dealt with by the original owner enthusiast, a moderate/high miles 964 is probably a great buy.

We have an exchange student from Norway with us for the HS year. His Dad just bought a '90 with 200,000km and is lovin' it.(the kid can't wait to get home!)

Hope the market doesn't correct before my time comes.

hitbyastick

I love the 964 looks more than the 993, because of the still more upright headlights, and not as round curves. And no, I can't afford one But one day I will... I dream on.

Flying Finn

Randall,

You made a conclusion that -94 964 is the 'best' (in terms of workmanship, being 'bulletproof', even though, we all know there is not such thing, right?), somehow, I made conclusion that -95 993 clearly is the best!

And for the looks... Nah, let's not go there, after all, we're all same family here! <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />