DME and titpronic ECU - how do they communicate??
06-18-2003, 09:49 AM
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DME and titpronic ECU - how do they communicate??
Further to my thinking re: MoTeC or other engine management, I realised while looking at the tiptronic control unit wiring diagram that it gets some of its inputs (relating to engine speed etc) from the DME.
Are these signals unprocessed data from the sensors or is it processed data from the DME? If the latter, it may complicate the replacement of the DME wiht another engine management system.
I will look under the seat tonight to see how the two are physically connected and have another look at the wiring diags - bu tif anyone knows this from experience, a hint would be great.
Are these signals unprocessed data from the sensors or is it processed data from the DME? If the latter, it may complicate the replacement of the DME wiht another engine management system.
I will look under the seat tonight to see how the two are physically connected and have another look at the wiring diags - bu tif anyone knows this from experience, a hint would be great.
06-18-2003, 10:14 AM
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Most if not all are processed signals from the DME and yes you are quite correct. I warned you about this before.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
06-18-2003, 11:48 AM
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Adrian
you sound like my mother <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I expect there 'may' be a solution to this. If we discover there isn't, well I just won't do the mod - I'm not desperate for it.
Hope you enjoyed Le Mans BTW
How's the book going?
you sound like my mother <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />
I expect there 'may' be a solution to this. If we discover there isn't, well I just won't do the mod - I'm not desperate for it.
Hope you enjoyed Le Mans BTW
How's the book going?
06-18-2003, 01:27 PM
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Dear John,
I also told you what the solution is. You have to have the tiptronic control unit reprogrammed to match the new data in the DME or other engine management system. The only people I know who can even get close to this is Porsche motorsports. You are going to need seriously deep pockets.
LeMans was brilliant. Gail and I were well looked after by some brilliant people. We watched the race in luxury far more than we deserve. There were some disappointments as well but we will not go into this.
We were presented with two wonderful 1/43rd models of last years winning GT-3RS. They were made specially for us.
Book is going well. I thought Bentley had officially posted the release date by now. I have not checked because I was away. 01.12.03 is the date I have.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
I also told you what the solution is. You have to have the tiptronic control unit reprogrammed to match the new data in the DME or other engine management system. The only people I know who can even get close to this is Porsche motorsports. You are going to need seriously deep pockets.
LeMans was brilliant. Gail and I were well looked after by some brilliant people. We watched the race in luxury far more than we deserve. There were some disappointments as well but we will not go into this.
We were presented with two wonderful 1/43rd models of last years winning GT-3RS. They were made specially for us.
Book is going well. I thought Bentley had officially posted the release date by now. I have not checked because I was away. 01.12.03 is the date I have.
Ciao,
Adrian
911C4
06-18-2003, 01:52 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Adrian:
<strong> I thought Bentley had officially posted the release date by now. I have not checked because I was away. 01.12.03 is the date I have.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Nothing yet on the Bentley website Adrian; your date suggests that we may have it in time for Christmas though!
<strong> I thought Bentley had officially posted the release date by now. I have not checked because I was away. 01.12.03 is the date I have.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Nothing yet on the Bentley website Adrian; your date suggests that we may have it in time for Christmas though!
06-18-2003, 02:36 PM
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Adrian
glad you had a great, luxurios time at LM.
Re tip control unit - IF I cannot supply it with the same data it expects to see from the stock DME, I won't bother replacing the DME. I would like to explore the upgrade potential of a tip for my benefit & the benefit of other tip users. I will look into a reliable, safe, repeatable system which returns measurable, useful gains in both peak power and torque acros hte rev range, but I won't spend ££££££ on modifying electronic boxes.
I will explore other avenues if the need arises.
Bye
glad you had a great, luxurios time at LM.
Re tip control unit - IF I cannot supply it with the same data it expects to see from the stock DME, I won't bother replacing the DME. I would like to explore the upgrade potential of a tip for my benefit & the benefit of other tip users. I will look into a reliable, safe, repeatable system which returns measurable, useful gains in both peak power and torque acros hte rev range, but I won't spend ££££££ on modifying electronic boxes.
I will explore other avenues if the need arises.
Bye
06-18-2003, 04:50 PM
#7
Re-programming the Tiptronic to interface with
another system, e.g. Motec, you need to think
about re-designing the Tiptronic?
You guys think all mods are as simple as changing
chips or a re-programming. Probably the min.
charge to start thinking about the problem for a
development company would be $25K
Good luck
another system, e.g. Motec, you need to think
about re-designing the Tiptronic?
You guys think all mods are as simple as changing
chips or a re-programming. Probably the min.
charge to start thinking about the problem for a
development company would be $25K
Good luck
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06-18-2003, 07:50 PM
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Loren
as you & Adrian say, the money required to do serious sytem redign etc to replace DME & have it communicate with the tiptronic control unit will be ££££££££££. I won't be doing that. I will be doing some tinkering, see if there is an engineering work around & if not, doing otehr things with my time and ££.
as you & Adrian say, the money required to do serious sytem redign etc to replace DME & have it communicate with the tiptronic control unit will be ££££££££££. I won't be doing that. I will be doing some tinkering, see if there is an engineering work around & if not, doing otehr things with my time and ££.
06-18-2003, 11:02 PM
#9
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by johnfm:
<strong> I would like to explore the upgrade potential of a tip for my benefit & the benefit of other tip users. I will look into a reliable, safe, repeatable system which returns measurable, useful gains in both peak power and torque acros hte rev range, but I won't spend ££££££ on modifying electronic boxes.
I will explore other avenues if the need arises.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I for one would be one of those "other Tip users" who would be interested in any potential Tip upgrades. I think the market for this type of upgrade would be a lot bigger than most people think. AFAIK, Tip cars are almost completely ignored by the aftermarket and tuners....
<strong> I would like to explore the upgrade potential of a tip for my benefit & the benefit of other tip users. I will look into a reliable, safe, repeatable system which returns measurable, useful gains in both peak power and torque acros hte rev range, but I won't spend ££££££ on modifying electronic boxes.
I will explore other avenues if the need arises.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I for one would be one of those "other Tip users" who would be interested in any potential Tip upgrades. I think the market for this type of upgrade would be a lot bigger than most people think. AFAIK, Tip cars are almost completely ignored by the aftermarket and tuners....
06-19-2003, 06:01 AM
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Bob
just to clarify - I am not trying to modify the tip control - I don't want to change anything about it at all. The current problem to work around is IF I change the DME for a MoTeC style engine management system, I MAY encounter a small problem in that some of the tiptronic control inputs come from the DME.
HOWEVER, opinions vary at the moment as to whether these inputs are processed from the DME before going to the tip control box, or whether it is unprocessed sensor info which is just shared by the DME and tip control box.
I am looking into it.
just to clarify - I am not trying to modify the tip control - I don't want to change anything about it at all. The current problem to work around is IF I change the DME for a MoTeC style engine management system, I MAY encounter a small problem in that some of the tiptronic control inputs come from the DME.
HOWEVER, opinions vary at the moment as to whether these inputs are processed from the DME before going to the tip control box, or whether it is unprocessed sensor info which is just shared by the DME and tip control box.
I am looking into it.
06-19-2003, 06:04 AM
#11
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Lorenfb:
<strong>
You guys think all mods are as simple as changing
chips or a re-programming. Probably the min.
charge to start thinking about the problem for a
development company would be $25K
Good luck</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Is there anything you DO recommend doing? Also, is there anyway you could be a little more constructive in your criticism? We are always keen to learn from others who have had experience with mods.
(biting tongue, severely).
<strong>
You guys think all mods are as simple as changing
chips or a re-programming. Probably the min.
charge to start thinking about the problem for a
development company would be $25K
Good luck</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Is there anything you DO recommend doing? Also, is there anyway you could be a little more constructive in your criticism? We are always keen to learn from others who have had experience with mods.
(biting tongue, severely).
06-19-2003, 11:58 PM
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Dear John,
I do not know how much you know about Engine management system, back in the late 80s and early 90s I was involved with the fuel injection tuning control of Rover 800. The kind of real time multi-variable control system was very complex and you are not talking about some simple sequential single input single output control system here. So I would say that you cannot just look at it as a simple communication problem. There are control problems involved especially the Tiptronic system is adaptive. You will need massive help from Porsche whom are not very willing to provide these information.
* Software algorithm cannot be patented and can be stolen and very very difficult to be found * That's why all these companies would be very very relucant to give you the software progarmme.
On the other hand , I think they are happy to set up and tune the system for you with a cost.
In my opinion, it is not PNP and even if you sort out the hand shaking, there are still many other issues to be resolved and the new system need to be retuned.
Cheers!
Eddie
I do not know how much you know about Engine management system, back in the late 80s and early 90s I was involved with the fuel injection tuning control of Rover 800. The kind of real time multi-variable control system was very complex and you are not talking about some simple sequential single input single output control system here. So I would say that you cannot just look at it as a simple communication problem. There are control problems involved especially the Tiptronic system is adaptive. You will need massive help from Porsche whom are not very willing to provide these information.
* Software algorithm cannot be patented and can be stolen and very very difficult to be found * That's why all these companies would be very very relucant to give you the software progarmme.
On the other hand , I think they are happy to set up and tune the system for you with a cost.
In my opinion, it is not PNP and even if you sort out the hand shaking, there are still many other issues to be resolved and the new system need to be retuned.
Cheers!
Eddie
06-20-2003, 12:46 AM
#14
Eddychan is right on. The DME and the Tiptronic
"talk", e.g. Tiptronic tells the DME to retard the
timing for a few ms for a smoother shift, or the
DME sends the engine load values or engine RPMs to the Tiptronic for proper unshift timing.
Please ignore some of my "rough" posts. As I've
said before, a lot of money can be wasted by good
intentioned Porsche owners going down a "bad
street".
Good luck
Lorenfb@systemsc.com
"talk", e.g. Tiptronic tells the DME to retard the
timing for a few ms for a smoother shift, or the
DME sends the engine load values or engine RPMs to the Tiptronic for proper unshift timing.
Please ignore some of my "rough" posts. As I've
said before, a lot of money can be wasted by good
intentioned Porsche owners going down a "bad
street".
Good luck
Lorenfb@systemsc.com
06-20-2003, 01:53 AM
#15
John--I understood your original post, and should have made my response more clear. I was just trying to register my support for the notion of mods that are compatible with tiptronic cars. Good luck and keep up your research, whatever you may ultimately find and decide.