Jay H

I just got my Feb 2003 issue of "Excellence". In this issue Bruce covers the '89 to '98 911s. His write up is basically the same as last year. He continues to warn about the pitfalls of the early ('89-'91) cars. The 993 is still the 'favored son' in his article, though he mentions resale values seemed to have dropped significantly on the 993 (parallels with what you can read over on the 993 board).

The prices for 964's have dropped in his charts too (to go along with what we all have been posting about for over a year now). Poor condition cars seems to have dropped about $2000- $3500 in value and excellent condition cars dropped about $2000-2500 in value.

Otherwise, not much new this year...

Jay
90 964

JonSeigel

If you follow the trend of his comments over the past year regarding 964s, he's been much more positive. He's mentioning but not overblowing the problems with the early 964s. The current write up was pretty good and 2-3 months ago he answered the eternal 3.2 v. 964 question by recommending the 964. You go Bruce!

Randall G.

Speaking of Bruce's take on the 964:

"The 964s came in for some heavy criticism when they were introduced because many people felt Porsche was too conservative with the car's styling. Under the skin, the 964 was 85-percent new, but the outside appearance was little different."

Hmmmm ... that's not the way I remember things. I recall the 964's "modern" styling being roundly applauded when introduced. In most cases, admired and lusted after. I think one would be hard-pressed to find an early 90's review critical of the 964's styling.

For example, quoting from Excellence mag's own 6/90 road test of the C2:

"Many Angelinos eyed the cabriolet enviously."

"One of the most sensuous ways to experience the Carrera 2 is to wash the car. You know how you become familiar with the contours of your car by washing it? So that you know exactly where the sponge will snag and the turkish towel will shred? Well forget those problems on the new Porsche. One surface flows seamlessly into another, all are sculpturally rounded, and the effect continues from top to underside. Wiping down the Carrera 2 reveals why the coefficient of drag is down to 0.32. The towel glides effortlessly from upper to lower boundary. Even the wheels are supremely easy to clean compared to the fussy Fuchs alloys of yore. The only criticism we still level at the design of the cabrio is continued incorporation of that hideous third brake light appendage on the rear deck. It's too bad Porsche didn't equip the dashboard to retract that item as well as the spoiler."

And, heck, while I'm at it, a plug for Design 90s:

"One distinct improvement to the Carrera 2 is the addition of wheels that Porsche terms 'Design 90' cast alloys, a new entry in the Porschephile's lexicon. These spidery aero wheels first appeared in forged form, on the 1988 'S' version of the 944 Turbo, so might better be termed 'Design 88' wheels. Nonetheless, they impart, along with the new bodywork, a particularly sensuous appearance to the Carrera 2 cabriolet. Their lighter appearance is in better keeping with the aerodynamic skirts and bumpers of the new Carrera."

Well, back to Bruce. I have great respect for the man, but I believe his market updates are half based on objective observations (fact), half based on subjective observations (personal opinion).

<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Jay H

I too distinctly remember reading the initial reviews in 1988 on the '89 C4 and everyone seemed to love the car, especially the AWD and all the updates that Porsche did. The C2 got nice reviews in 1990 when that car came out.

I have a ton of old car mag reviews on 964's and everyone gave the various models more praise than scorn. They had too. The 964 was such an improvement (technically) from the previous 3.2 cars.

Speaking of Design 90's, I've had more than a few comments over the past couple of years on my stock D' 90 rims that I still have on the car. Most of the guys state that it's nice to still see Design 90's on a 964 since most people toss them in favor of cup rims. Those comments surprised me.

JonSeigel

No offense to Randall and the other Design 90 fans, but the comment in that article Randall posted saying that Design 90s are "particularly sensuous" is going a bit too far, don't you think?

Ruairidh

[quote]Originally posted by JonSeigel:
<strong>No offense to Randall and the other Design 90 fans, but the comment in that article Randall posted saying that Design 90s are "particularly sensuous" is going a bit too far, don't you think? </strong><hr></blockquote>

No, if Randall thinks that Des90s are "particularly sensuous" I think we should respect his ....um.....feelings and look the other way....... <img src="graemlins/icon107.gif" border="0" alt="[icon107]" />

More seriously I've always felt that Bruce was a bit of a prat in his dislike of the 964 <img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" /> While I haven't cancelled my subscription it has lessened my opinion of his writing. It is OK for him not to like the model but Randall hits on only some of the questionable "justifications" Bruce has raised in support of his overall view that the 964 is a lesser 911.

But then again I'm one of the nutters who think it is the best looking 911 and will be saying the same in 10 years time. Actually I think our own Robert Linton put it best in another thread
[quote]Finally, on a purely personal note re the 964, while Type 993 and Type 996 clearly present considerable advances in certain areas and have a distinctive style of their own (which, understandably, is favored by many), I just plain like the looks of Type 964 and view it as the last Porsche exhibiting the traditional style of manufacture, fit and finish. <hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Randall G.

Okay, must confess that I sleep with a "sensuous" Design 90 wheel. I have another that wears a wig and I've made up to look like Ginger on Gilligan's Island.



Okay, seriously. While sensuous may be a bit over descriptive, I do feel that Design 90s blend well with the 964's (relatively speaking) understated body style. The same way I felt when I bought the car 10 years ago. Minority opinion, I know (on a board full of minority opinion'ers, nonetheless). On the other hand, if I felt a great need to put 17" wheels on my car, the Design 90s would be history.

Irishdriver

Actually, is Bruce still alive?

I've read his 914 review for three years now and not one word has changed while the interest in these cars and the availability of parts has changed quite a lot.

I think the old articles are just dusted off, someone changes the dates on the value tables and no thought is added. This is why I don't subscribe to Excellence.

As the dude would say; Excellent - NOT !!!!

neil williams

Not only does Bruce seem to not like 964s too much, but he was quoted by a certain owner of "another" Porsche site (that is dominated by pre-89 911 owners) as saying that EVERY 964 he has stripped down suffers from premature valve wear.

Just how many is that and could it be a problem of selfselection? I mean how many 964 engines with no problems would Mr Anderson be pulling apart?
<img src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" border="0" alt="[soapbox]" />

Roygarth

Randalls Quote:
Okay, seriously. While sensuous may be a bit over descriptive, I do feel that Design 90s blend well with the 964's (relatively speaking) understated body style. The same way I felt when I bought the car 10 years ago.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Well said, sums it up perfectly, couldn't agree more!

BR
Piers
1990 C4 coupe
Design 90's & Flag Mirrors

PelicanParts.com

Hi Neil. It's the owner of that 'other' Porsche web site. I did take Bruce and Jerry Woods' class last week, and they did make the point of saying that all the 3.6 motors that they have torn down have had premature valve guide wear. While I can't speak for them exactly, I think that Jerry Woods would indeed know what he's talking about. Bruce does too.

Some of the engines that were pulled apart were disassembled because of failures in other components, and I think that some were pulled apart for performance upgrades...

-Wayne

Ruairidh

Ruairidh

[quote]Originally posted by Wayne at Pelican Parts:
<strong>Hi Neil. It's the owner of that 'other' Porsche web site. I did take Bruce and Jerry Woods' class last week, and they did make the point of saying that all the 3.6 motors that they have torn down have had premature valve guide wear. While I can't speak for them exactly, I think that Jerry Woods would indeed know what he's talking about. Bruce does too.

Some of the engines that were pulled apart were disassembled because of failures in other components, and I think that some were pulled apart for performance upgrades...

-Wayne</strong><hr></blockquote>

I guess I'm not sure how serious this premature valve guide wear is then? Many of our cars are between 60 and 120,000 miles and I'm not sure how many have had problems related to this specific issue?

Ruairidh

[quote]Originally posted by Randall G.:
<strong>Okay, must confess that I sleep with a "sensuous" Design 90 wheel. </strong><hr></blockquote>

LOL
<img src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" border="0" alt="[hiha]" /> ...........although after a couple of beers I can see the attraction......

Bill Gregory

[quote]<strong>as saying that EVERY 964 he has stripped down suffers from premature valve wear.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Neil,

There is a thought that 3.6L was pushing the envelope for a production air cooled engine, with increased valve guide wear as one symptom. You don't typically see valve guide wear problems on the 3.0L engines, and there have been some valve guide problems in the 3.2L engines, although more the earlier rather than later ones.