tonytaylor

ThomasC2

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"> Front: Turbo 3.6 calipers and discs from 3.6 or 3.3 turbo. It's the same calipers as the 993 TT/RS, and you need adapters.

Rear: Use the 3.6 Turbo caliper. It's the same as the 3.3 or RS, except for the colour. Just bolt on. You could possibly use the 993 TT/RS caliper but then you have to use adapters I think. The rear discs are the RS discs as said above. The rear pads are the same size as late C2,C4,RS and Turbos.

Also change the break bias valve to the 3.6 turbo version.

I did this upgrade a couple a months ago and it works really well, and it looks great </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">This is the same system as mine. Do you have any problems with the ABS ?

Cupcar

Note that you can't mix the 3.6 Turbo and 3.3 Turbo front calipers and discs. 3.6 caliper must have 3.6 disc and the 3.3 likewise must have 3.3 parts.

The 993 TT and Turbo 3.6 both use the 928 GTS size caliper on the front along with a 322 mm disc, but the 993 TT uses the S4 (same as 3.3 Turbo front) size caliper at the rear with 322 mm discs.

The Turbo 3.6 and 3.3 rear calipers are designed for a 28 mm thick disc and can't be used with an RS disc since it is only 24 mm thick, if you use an RS disc in the rear you must use the RS or non Turbo 993 rear caliper. Likewise if you use the 28 mm thick Turbo disc you must use Turbo calipers. The piston sizes are the same for all these rear calipers. <img border="0" alt="[typing]" title="" src="graemlins/yltype.gif" />

tonytaylor

I think there is a problem with rear 3.6 turbo calipers/discs clearing the wheels on a (narrow body) 964 C2 , hence the use of the RS disc.

Bill Verburg

Cupcar(Bob) outlined some good setups but I would like to add a few comments

There are only 3 physical sizes of non monoblok Brembo caliper used on all Porsche models
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• <font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">small here after refered to as basic was used front/rear on all n/a 964, rear on 993 C2, rear 928S4 has 86sqcm of pad area/caliper</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">medium here after refered to as 993/S4 was used front on all 993, front on 964 3.3t, front 928S4, rear 993C4 & 964 3.6T 993tt has 112.5 sqcm of pad area/caliper</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">large here after refered to as Big Red was used front 928GTS, front 9643.6T, front 993tt has 151 sqcm of pad area/caliper</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Each of these calipers except the Big Red(only available in 44/36, 32x322mm rotor, radial mount but can be had in several different colors)) is available in several different configurations </font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">radial or transverse mount</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">design rotor width and radius</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">piston sizes</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">leading/trailing mount</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">In general you will always want to have piston size balanced f/r. The factory has usually used </font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">44/36 front w/ 34/30 rear</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">40/36 front w/ 30/28 rear</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The 28mm 964t rear rotor has the wrong o/s for a n/a 964 and cannot be used
The 964RS used the 993/S4 front caliper 44/36 radial mount w/ 322x32mm 3.6t front rotors. This is a bolt on w/ the proper caliper adapter, I would use the 2 piece floating rotors, because of their lighter weight. A cheaper alternative that Bill Gregory told me about is to use the slotted 1 piece 928 S4 305x32mm rotors w/ appropriate caliper adapters. As Bob & Bill pointed out use the 993 rear 34/30 calipers on the stock 299x24mm rotor(or the more expensive 951 352 041 91 968 sport rear rotors which are drilled. Since most braking is done at the front this setup will likely be adequate. I would not use any p/v w/ this setup, toough the factory used a 60bar p/v for turbos and a 55bar for n/a models

The next step up from that setup is the same rear w/ the 44/36 Big Red caliper on the front. This caliper is 10mm taller than the 993/S4 as a result it can not be used on a 305x32mm rotor and must have a 322x32mm version.

Some interesting possibilities for the rear are 964t rear caliper on a custom ~305X28mm rotor, 993C4 rear on 993C4 322x28mm rear rotor( I have no idea if this will work its just an idea at this point)

Its amazing to me that the 964t rear caliper is easier to fit to the rear of a 911 than to the rear of a 964. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Bill Gregory

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"><strong>use the slotted 1 piece 928 S4 305x32mm rotors w/ appropriate caliper adapters.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Note the appropriate caliper adapter are those offered by many vendors for Brembo to 964, and others, brake fittings. I used the FVD 964 adaptors, as they are a lower weight set. Others are heavier.

David K.

This is the setup I run on my RS America for Vehicle Craft Inc.
see this link: <a href="http://www.vehiclecraft.com/Brakes/vciweb7.htm" target="_blank">Vehicle Craft Inc. Carrera 2/4 Brake Upgrades</a>

Front:
993Twin Turbo "Big Red" calipers 12.75"x1.25" (324x32mm) VCI floating rotors

Rear:
C-2 Turbo Red (not TT) rear calipers narrowed to fit 968 sport drilled 24mm rotors

And VCI completely removed the bias valve.

David K.

jchaley

Ok if I under stand what people are saying I could do the following:
Use 993(or 928S4 or 964 3.3 turbo) front calipers (med size) with 964 3.3 Turbo rotors and a caliper adapter for the front.

Use 993C4 rear calipers (small size) with RS or 968 CS rear rotors

If I did the above I would have a copy of the brakes that came on the 964RS

Is this correct? can I use a 993 front rotor or does it have to be a 964 3.3 turbo?

thanks

john

Mr. C4

Very interesting and transparent thread! I came to think of rim size limitations. Does Big Black and Big Red require 18" wheels?

Ciao,

Johannes E.

ThomasC2

Tony: I haven't noticed any problem with the ABS.

The rear (red) caliper of the 3.6 Turbo works well with the rear RS/968 disc. Put a 2 mm washer on the bolts between the hub and the caliper. That will center the caliper perfectly on the disc, and the pistons can handle the 2 mm difference without any problems at all.

Mr C4: It's enough with 17" wheels.

Bill Gregory

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"><strong>Use 993(or 928S4 or 964 3.3 turbo) front calipers (med size) with 964 3.3 Turbo rotors and a caliper adapter for the front.

Use 993C4 rear calipers (small size) with RS or 968 CS rear rotors

If I did the above I would have a copy of the brakes that came on the 964RS

Is this correct? can I use a 993 front rotor or does it have to be a 964 3.3 turbo?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">No, not quite correct. </font>

• <font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The 993 front calipers, mounted on a 964, use either a 928S4 rotor or a 968 M030 rotor, which is 304x32mm. Haven't fit the 3.3 Turbo rotor, so can't speak first hand on it's fitment.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The Carrera RS uses 322x32 rotors in front, with an S4 caliper.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The 993 front rotor isn't the correct offset to use on a 964.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">The rear 993 caliper can also be used with stock 964 rotors.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I'm not a fan of using the 928S4 calipers on the front of the 964 due to the way the brake hose attaches. On our 964's, the rubber hose goes from wheel well to strut, where it's anchored on both ends. The 928S4 caliper has a unique hose attachment, and, from the installation I've seen, requires the 928 hose to to from the wheel well directly to the caliper.</font></li>
• <font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">993 rear calipers to use are the 993 C2 calipers, not the C4's. 993C4's have the same piston sizes as 964 C4's/92-C2's/RSA's.</font></li>

<font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">

Christer

I have asked JZ Machtech what their solution would be (after all, they would be fitting it). I will let you know what they say if anyone has any comments. At the moment, there are too many variables for me to decide/understand. But thanks to all!

Cupcar

Some things have been said in this string that are causing or may cause confusion.

The 928 descriptors for caliper design are being used to discuss the 964/993 brake calipers. This leads to the assumption, being made by some, that for example a 928 S4 caliper can be taken from it's Porsche factory sealed shipping carton and bolted onto a 911 chassis. IT CAN'T, HERE'S WHY:

Let's, in our minds, take the left front 928 caliper and mount it on our 911 in it's normal 10 o'clock position in relation to the wheel. We find that it's little directional arrow is pointing in the direction of disc rotation like it should, but we also find that the brake bleeders are now on the bottom of the caliper and the crossover pipe is at the top! Why? Because on the 928 the left front caliper mounts at the 2 o'clock position and on the 911 it's in the 10 o'clock position. THE SOLUTION IS TO TRANSPOSE THE BRAKE BLEEDERS AND CROSSOVER PIPE PUTTING THE BLEEDERS ON TOP AND THE CROSSOVER PIPE ON THE BOTTOM WHERE THEY BELONG FOR A 911 INSTALLATION. This way the caliper rotation arrow is correct and the hole to receive the brake line at the back of the caliper is in the correct position at the top.

Some installers have merely moved the caliper to the other side of the vehicle to get the bleeders right, but then you will have two new problems:

1) The directional arrow is not facing correctly in relation to disc rotation, so now the differentially sized pistons can't do their job to even out pad wear, and:

2) The hole for the brake line is at the bottom of the caliper and the brake lines don't match up. I guess some creative work has been done to install the brake line in this situation.

It is much easier to transpose the bleeders and crossover lines. The crossover lines do get their paint chipped, so new ones are nice to have around when doing this at a cost of around $30 US each.

The other confusing thing in the discussions is that some of the installations are considering an installation in a 16 inch wheel where a 304 mm disc is the maximum diameter and others are describing installation in a 17 inch wheel where a 322 mm disc will fit. The wheel limitations were not revealed and this leads to confusion. <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Bill Gregory

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica"><strong>an installation in a 16 inch wheel where a 304 mm disc is the maximum diameter and others are describing installation in a 17 inch wheel where a 322 mm disc will fit.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">All good points. I can add with the 993 front caliper and 928 86-91 S4 (or 968 M030) rotors, that a 1/8" spacer is required for the 16" cup (standard 92- wheel) to clear the 993 calipers.

Bill Verburg

The 993/S4 descriptor of physical size and pad size, is just that a description which incorporates the first chassis to use it as a trailing mount and the last to use it as a leading mount. To further obfuscate things the early trailing mount 928 S4 caliper was 42/36 unlike the 993 which is 44/36 leading mount.

Another issue will be m/c size the factory has always used either 23.81mm or 25.4mm w/ the bigger calipers. If the stock 964C2 m/c(20.64mm) is retained the brakes will be mushier than they would be w/ a larger size m/c and the slave to master ratio is uncomfortably close to being insufficient.

Unfortunately the hyd boosted 25.4mm or 23.81mm m/c's are not easily transplanted.