RobMc

I've got my car buying decision down to 2 cars. One being a new car S2000 and the other a 91 964 that I have posted about here. I have been asking around mostly to neutral car guys and gals and have been getting a LOT of negative responses toward the 964. Usually along the lines of" those were the dark years for the 911 and the early 964's had a lot of problems." I've done research here and found out the weaknesses of the car, flywheel dist. belt etc. and feel that all cars have weaknesess. So I would like the input of you guys the owners. BTW I also like the large fenders on the 964.

Jay H

The three major problems of the early 964 are:

1) Cylinder to head leak

2) Freudenberg DMF failure

3) Dual Distributor belt failure

The 3 major fixes for the above list:

1) Inspect car for this leak. If it has it (most don't), move on or bargin the price down 5000-7000 dollars.

2) If the car does not have the more robust LUK flywheel installed that replaced the failure prone Freudenberg, bargin the price down $2000 or plan for that repair.

3) Spend $13 on a vent kit, $170 on changing the dual distributor belt and don't worry about it for another 5 years or 50,000 miles.

These are solid, well engineered, and reliable cars. You are aware of the problems and my point of that redundant list that we all have read about over and over is that all of the early 964 problems have permanent and reliable fixes.

The Honda is a much newer car and is a totally different animal. It's very hard to compare the two. The 964 model line is old and will have it's problems like all aging cars do. The S2000 will come with a full warranty and probably zero problems for the first years of it's service life.

I like useable torque, flat 6 motors and Porsches in general, so I'd still take the 964 if it was my money.

Get what YOU want and not what everyone else wants you to get.

Good luck with your decision,
Jay
<a href="http://www.jays911.com" target="_blank">90 964</a>

Randall G.

As Jay alludes to above, a 964 with the three early model bugs (overblown) addressed is essentially mechanically identical to the 993, which to date has received much better press than the 964. Same heads .... same dual mass flywheel .... same vent kit for the distributor.

As the 993 ages, it's starting to exhibit some of the same general problems that the 964 has experienced. Broken distributor belts, failed HVAC servo motors, seized rear blowers, leaking power steering pumps and racks. In addition, it has its own set of bugs that won't be found on a 964. Examples .... failed hydraulic lifters, vacuum leaks in the HVAC (964 doesn't use vacuum control), plugged secondary air injection lines that (if fixed "by the book") require a top end rebuild (!) to pass emissions (owners have used or are looking at less expensive approaches to bypass or correct this problem), door stays that are more prone to rip from the pillar because they lack an additional weld found on the 964.

I don't mean to be harsh on the 993--it's a great car. My point is that the 964 has been unfairly characterized as a buggy car, while the bugs of other Porsche models aren't getting the same negative PR. I suspect we can thank a certain very knowledgeable but over-influential writer from Excellence magazine for this.

Any used Porsche is going to be expensive to maintain (they aren't Toyota Camrys ) . The 993 and 964 are more complicated than earlier 911s, and as a result will likely be more expensive to maintain. In return, you get AC that actually works, ABS, air bags, that great 3.6L engine, a 6-speed transmission (in the case of the 993), and overall superior performance.

I like to say the 964 offers (very) near-993 performance for a lot less $$.

Whatever 911 you purchase, make sure that it's thoroughly inspected. Recovering from a P.O.'s deferred maintenance (neglect)--of even non-critical components, such as HVAC--can get real expensive in a hurry.

Best of luck!

Berkley

Everything that Jay offered up is good advice....One of my biggest Porsche mistakes was selling my 964 C2 Coupe....the materials and build quality were superb, not to mention the performance...I think that the reason you see so few was not "problems" but price...the MSRP for my Coupe was over $70,000 in 1991! You can always buy a Honda but there damn few 964s to pick from...Good Luck

RobMc

Good points guys. Wow Berkley 70k for a coupe in 91? Randall I know about the door strap problem on the 993 but I wasn't aware the 964 had the extra weld. I would not let the issues of the 964 defer my buying choice. I think people hear about problems specific to certain models and presume them bad. All cars have there issues even the s2000 has had its problems. I think you all have beautiful cars and have made good choices.

Phil Raby

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by Jay H:
<strong>The three major problems of the early 964 are:

1) Cylinder to head leak

2) Freudenberg DMF failure

3) Dual Distributor belt failure </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Just a minor point - the very early 964s (ie 1989) had a conventional flywheel, not dual mass, so doesn't suffer from such problems.

Cheers

Phil

blu951

What about the 92' C2's are they included with those problems??

Jeff Curtis

Some 1992 models will NOT have the distributor ventilation kit, but that's not a real issue...get the kit, install it, no issue ~ $18 or so.

As for the cylinder head leakage issues, it is a trouble that shows up sporatically, and happened to on my 964, a 1991. Those issues were pretty much taken care of by a cylinder and head upgrade in 1992...as was the DMF trouble.

91C2wrencher

Rob, Rob, Rob, What are you smok'in? Let's see now I could drive a new cool ricer and be the envy of all my neighbors, when the novelty wears off whatd'ya got? OR I could drive a classic porsche 964 and be the envy of all my neighbors who bought lesser cars.... My '91 coupe has been a delight to own and drive. Yeah some pri$cy repairs over the years, but I dont baby my car. I've had none of the cylinder head problems, I did replace the Damn DMF but hey it was after my first DE event(my heal/toe is much better now), the dizzy belt broke last year, I think it cost me $150 to fix. Other than my somewhat **** approach to maintenance(every spirng I get some of the little things that older cars need fixed)Seals, regular valve adj., brake fluid flushes its worth every minute and $ to drive this car. Come on man, a Honda?

RobMc

<img border="0" alt="[hiha]" title="" src="graemlins/roflmao.gif" /> C2 wrencher you sound like the salesmen who are selling the 964 I am interested in! One of my car goals has always been to buy a new car, but nothing has interested me (in my price range anyways) for the last 5-10 years up until the s2k. I could care less about status when buying a car I go for what I like. Unfortunately my taste is not limited to just one car. If I do get the s2000 I will still set a goal for an older sportscar to add to my heirum!

ltc

Rob,
My 2 cents would be to just drive the cars; you'll know which one to buy then. Both of my P cars were no brainers; I knew right away.

It also depends on what you expect to do with the cars (daily driver, occasional DE, winters). I've been on the track with S2000's. They're sort of like Miatas....nowhere to be found on the straights, but on your tail in the infield/turns.

Personally, I haven't found a substitute for the sound of the air cooled flat 6, windows open, no radio (dumb option anyways), to relieve stress at the end of any bad day.

Best of luck with your decision

adsc4s

The 964 and S2000 are very different vehicles. Based on the experiences with my 964, I would guess that the 964 will be more costly to maintain. Parts will cost a ton more and so will any labor. In a 12 year old car, if most of the major mechanical components have not been replaced, they will need to be soon. The interior/exterior will be showing wear unless they have been recovered/repainted or the PO's were very diligent. Shocks, brake pads, rotors, seals, hood shocks, carpeting may also need attention. Remember, any 12 year old car will need attention unless it has been meticulously maintained. And even then, moving parts will wear or age. The S2000 is a Honda. Because of that ( I have owned 3 Honda's), I believe the S2000 will be pretty trouble free and will be much less expensive to maintain. It will cost you around $10K more than a good 964 but you will get a great warranty.

With all that said, nothing, and I mean nothing is a Porsche. The acceleration, handling, history and that sound, the 3.6 sound are unique to Porsche. IMHO, I would get a well sorted out 964 and keep the extra $10K ready for repairs and mods. Or you can look for a higher mileage 993.

Andy Roe

What about depreciation?

The 964's have by now, lost most of their depreciation, but an S2000 will loose lots of $$$$/££££ in the first few years of ownership. This loss should be taken into account when considering the extra cost required to run the 964.

IMHO, if cash flow is not too much of a problem , go with the 964. I think most people would agree that owning a 911 is special & everyone should own one at somepoint in their lives, if nothing more than to be able to say "I had a 911...."!!!

Andy
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Randal

No Brainer get a 911, I would much rather have a used Pcar rather than a new Honda
If I was thinking about a S2000 I would buy another C5 Corvette instead

Randal

KirkF

Porsche - There is no substitute.

Kirk
89 911 C4
84 944