Hubert

I know I'm probably going over an already belaboured topic, but forgive (and endulge ) me in advance.

I've consistently gone back and forth b/w deciding on an RSA and simply gutting and modifying a 964 C2; the RSA appeals to me b/c of its "lineage" and because of its execution of principle - lightweight , lithe street car.

The base 964's appeal to me, b/c they're (on avg.) 10-15 grand less than the RSAs - and that adds up to a lot of modification.

Do the RSA's really warrant the premiums, or would I be better off buying a std. 964 and having my way with it? Moreover, (to those that own modified 964s) would you suggest I look for something w/ everything that I'd like, or should I build from the ground up?

Thank you,
hubert

PS: Any one know of a track setup/modified 964 for sale in CA?

Tom W

Hubert,

I can think of only one reason to get a "real" RSA - you plan to use it for club racing. I've done many mods to my C2 (and the POs did many too) that convert it to an RSA and then some. As I'm seriously thinking about starting to race, I now have to serious think about what class I expect to run in (and the mods I need to un-do).

For a street or DE car, I think that a C2 that you modify is by far the best way to go. For example, I wanted an RSA tail for my car due to rules requirements in time trials (when I bought the car it had an RS 3.8 wing). A "real" used RSA tail was going to be $1000 (before I cleaned and painted it). I bought a new (after market) deck lid and tail for $750. Door panels and some of the other mods that make it lighter (carpet, etc) are a few hunder dollars, not the thousands more for a factory RSA.

garrett376

Mechanically, C2's have power steering which adds weight, but makes it easier to steer if you enjoy being wimpy when parking. The power steering pump and the camshaft drive does seem to add a location for a popular oil leak location as well. It's a trade-off!

The M030 suspension of an RSA seems to be on the soft side for most racers - so I've read.

Financially it seems to be cheaper to start with a C2 - most RSA's for sale like on PCA.org seem "optioned up" which makes them just like a C2 but with no power steering, and no back seats (for the 93's). Having a limited slip differential is fairly uncommon on a C2, but helpful for a track car. Also, it is always cheaper to buy a car already set up, than to do the work yourself. But, you get to set it up how you want if you do it your way...

Just some things I've come across in my research for a 964 racer...

ltc

There are several track prepared RSA's on rsamerica.net, as well as one or two on the PCA Mart.

Cupcar#12

Honestly - if i were doing it all over today i would start with a normal C2 - and convert it to what ever class you want to run in (in PCA you can convert a car into another model - much like many of the 993 RS cars that are running today) But please don't take my word for it - call the PCA.
I would also look at the Normal Stock Class for the C2 (E i believe) before converting and do the cost bennie analysis. chances are you are going to convert out of that class as you gain experiance/want to go faster, etc.
http://www.pca.org/pca/clubrace/docs/pca_rules_2004.pdf
With an RS you are running Stock "D" - No A/C - with the 993, 3.3 Turbo's, US Carrera Cup Edition (street version). pretty tough company
with A/C you are running "E" with the normal 964 crowd, 2.7 RS (Touring), older Turbos (75-77), 944 Turbo S, and the 88 club sport. Better company to run with IMHO.

It is a lot cheaper to convert a C2 (say a 25-30K car) to RSA (40K) or RS/Cup (60K+) specs than to start with a real one. On either you are going to want to do the suspension, Cage it, new seat, sway bars,etc. - that costs the same no matter what you start with.
Power steering can be removed capped off and sold - not hard to do. The rack is different but not noticable - or it can be replaced with the manual RS rack (call Gert).

I think about it this way now days - I would rather wreck a 25K car than a 40K one.
It's not a matter of IF something will happen - it's just WHEN.
Don't compromise on the safety gear. (And Get a HANS or Similiar device)

My 2 cents...Not racing or tracking currently

garrett376

Rob that's a good point about wrecking/damaging a cheaper, less special car. That's the reason I am looking to stop racing my 65 911 - I am too scared when someone will bump me - got close a couple times in the last race from some hot-dog 993 race cars (yes, I was a "moving chicane" but that's besides the point! ). That's another good reason to start with a less special car, and change it from there. You won't have any regrets stacking on the miles, or customizing the heck out of it. And if you bend the bodywork, no big deal (or at least less of a big deal)!

Flagg

Hubert,

If you are buying the car only to track and do D.E. events get the C2. You will have more money to put into modifications. It is much easier to replace if something happens.

If you are buying the car to ocasionally do a D.E., but also want more of a collectors car over time...........get the RSA. Also - I LOVE the feel of the manual steering..........once you are moving!

I have done just about everything with my RSA (D.E. events, ralleys, concourse, autocross, drive and dines, etc.) and met a lot of great friends and had a ton of fun with my car.

For me, it was an easy choice. I am an original owner..........back when the RSA was less to buy then a C2!

Flagg - 93 RS America

carreracup21

I went the other way and bought a USA Cup for D - class . Why ? Well it was already a developed club race car when I bought it. Also, if you look at the alternatives such as building up a C2, RSA or 993 for E or D, you end up spending just as much and it still won't be as quick, and if you ever decide to sell, it won't keep it's value either. The USA cups were made for the track and will keep their value. Wrecking one would break your heart but it isn't any more expensive to fix ... well unless you have to try and find a replacement aluminum hood anyway. I think if you want to go the C2 or RSA route, buy one that someone else has already built up.

tonytaylor

It is expensive to convert a C2 into an (euro ) RS and it will never have the provenance of the real thing. There are simply too many expensive differences that make the RS superior as a track car to make the conversion worthwhile ( seam welding, totaly different suspension, brakes etc)
Having said that the RSA is, IIRC, based on a C2 and not the ( euro) RS and converting to RSA is more about deleting parts and upgrading the coilovers which isn't that expensive.

It depends what you want to do with the car;
If you want a track only car then buy a RS clubsport with the welded cage - it will be cheaper than trying to convert a C2, probably better, and will offer potential asset growth
If you want a road/track compromise then modify a C2 - you can get98% of the RS experience for half the money with a better road car as a bonus.

If you can buy a modified C2 with all the right bits that will be the cheapest option but you just have to ensure that it has the right mods and they have been done well. One of the problems of modification is that things don't always go as you expect and revisions need to be made. You don't want to buy a part developed car

( My own C2 is heavily modified for track use and can hold its own against RS's but whether its better is equivicable)

carreracup21

The RS clubsport is tough to get. If you want try an import one that is road legal get ready to pay big for things like airbags, taxes, bumper upgrades ect.. I have only seen one Euro RS in this country and it's racing. You can find some Euro Cups, but they are truly track only cars that are totally stripped out, They are pretty cool though. You can find ( with patience and $$) a USA Carerra cup edition that is a US street legal version of the Euro RS with some minor changes. They are rare, but make an excellent investment and are incredible to drive on the track or street. They are what the RSA should have been.

joey bagadonuts

Yes, I believe the RSA does warrant a premium. It's a limited edition variant, with some unique features and somewhat in demand. That combination usually results in higher resale prices and is the case with RSA's.

Whether YOU feel it is worth more is entirely up to you. If you are looking for something unique with minimal depreciation (provided you keep the mileage down, minimize the mods and keep it off the track) then this may be a car worth considering. If depreciation is a concern, then you're better off "having your way" with a standard C2.

As mentioned, finding a "built" car is always a better deal than building one yourself. Only a fraction of the dollars invested are ever recouped when it comes time to sell. You may miss out on some of the fun of developing your own car but it will definitely save you money and eliminate some of the hassles of upgrading (did you read the "Spring Disaster" thread?).

That said, I actually enjoyed the process of developing my bone stock C4 (with the help of Rennlist ) into a well-sorted track toy. Since I track and autocross my car regularly, these improvements can be seen in better lap or run times which is a pretty rewarding experience on its own. Plus, I learned a lot about peformance upgrades and their effects on the car which has greatly enhanced my ownership experience.

As mentioned above, you should try to determine what you want to "get out" of your ownership experience before buying. Whether it's a weekend driver, concours queen, track toy, project car or club racer, your search should begin with that end in mind.

0.02

JoeW

This is the same debate I had. As you can tell from my sig., I went with the RSA (and am delighted I did!). Let me explain what my own "reasoning" (emotioning, actually) was:

I was hunting for a well-sorted C2 with the idea of using it as a tri-purpose car for street, autoX, and DE. I had seen RSAs but didn't think I could swing the premium, though I really liked the look and the idea of the car. What happened along the way is that I found my current RSA, fell in love with it, said "Budget, be damned!" and that was that.

There are three things I like about my car over the regular C2 (keep in mind that this is all very subjective and personal) -- I love the look of the wing (sorry, it's juvenile, I know); I like the fact it was limited production and draws a premium (people think it's special and I like that); most of all, I like the lack of power steering (the Porsche road feel is magnified significantly and it is a real pleasure for me. Ymmv.)

Now, when I started looking, like you I had the impression that it was light weight and that it had some sort of "lineage" as you called it. I had the idea, in other words, that it was something like an RS with maybe some extra emissions controls. It's not. It's a "stripper." It's a C2 with some stuff stripped out. And, according to at least one expert (who I don't want to misquote by accident), the reason it is a limited edition is because Porsche was losing money on it, so stopped making it to cut their losses. Its success is not due to Porsche engineering (like the RS) but to the marketing department. With none of the options (four were offered -- ltd. slip, radio, sunroof, A/C) the car weighs only 50 pounds less than a regular C2 (that rear wing is heavy), and most RSAs were sold with sunroof (44 lbs.), radio (??), and A/C (40 lbs.) If you get one and want to save weight, begin by replacing the seats: a set of Recaros or Sparcos can save you 20-30 lbs./side!

Suggestion: pick the car because you like it, no matter which one it is -- you can't make a rational argument to justify a used Porsche based on utility or economics. (But you can make great excuses! )

In my own case, I also had a list of the things I would most likely want to modify on the car when I bought it. The RSA I found had nearly all of them (see sig. again). I have PO receipts for nearly $15000 worth of modifications. I paid (I estimate) $2000 for them! That's something else I like about my car.

In my case I got lucky. I found a RSA in terrific shape with $15000 in mods and paid less than what it would have cost me for a C2 in similar condition (approx. $30k) if I had to do the modifications myself.

Check out the cars in the marketplace on RSA.net!

Hope this helps. Just one person's opinion.

Joe

9XI

The RSA is a factory RS. That means something to me. I don't know why exactly, but it does. And, I am not alone -- read $10K premium. Now, I grant as correct all the arguments that it is a "stripper" and not in the same spirit as the '73 RS. However, it is a true RS nonetheless. That may or may not be worth something in your mind.

The other thing is that it really is a different feeling car than a C2. The steering is the biggest factor, but other things like the super snug seats, the door pulls, the suspension. It feels more raw and primitive to me than C2s. That suits me.

Just my $0.25.

K964

Will this be a track only car? Or do you want a car to drive on the street? I sold my '94 RSA because I no longer enjoyed driving it on the street. Plus, it was way too nice to tear up at the track.

Pedigree is important to me as well. For a track only car I decided upon a '92 Carrera Cup---2500lbs and a conservative 270hp. It is a true factory race car and is a piece of Porsche racing history.

The RSA is a great compromise between street and track; however, it was not quite hardcore enough for me.

ltc

I'm afraid I have to disagree, but the RSA is NOT a factory (true) RS. I would refer you to Bob Gagnon's "Lightweight Confusion', which is THE definitive analysis on this topic.

http://www.porsche964.co.uk/variants/confusion.htm

The RSA is merely/basically a C2 with M030, fabric sport seats, RSA tail and manual steering. Hence the modest weight savings over a C2. The only RSA's that were speculated to be similar to an RS were the very early (92 build) 1993 RSA's without sunroof; as it is thought they used RS tubs (hence the rolled fender lips, wrinkle paint, etc).

I am in no way knocking the RSA; I owned one (non sunroof, with LSD in midnight blue metallic) and thought it was a fantastic car for both daily driving and the track. However, it is a very far cry from an RS (M002 or M003 versions).