97*Sunshine

I'm looking into a 1990 911 Carrera 2 Targa and am inches away from making an offer. The car is on it's 4th? owner and has about 95000 miles on it. By no means is it a "show car", but I'm just looking for a toy - not a collector's item. The seats are good, with only minor creases. The heads were re-ground two owners ago and occasionally drips, but doesn't leak oil anymore. (from what I hear, the 3.8L engine was notorious for this) A windshield leak has been repaired recently and new seals have been put on the targa and windshield as well. The climate control fan sticks on high at some times, and you can tell that it has been repainted. The airbags were serviced by a Porsche dealer last fall, and the transaxle oil has been changed. It's also 3k away from a valve adjustment and probably could use some new tires.

Is there anything I should be aware of, or does anyone have any comments/advice/opinions they'd be willing to share? Thanks

Kim

DJF1

Hi Kim and welcome to Rennlist!

You might want to redirect you question to the 964 board. The 911 you are looking at was internally code named 964, like my 911 which was produced from 1995-1998 is codenamed 993 by the factory. Simply put a way to tell which model years 911s you are talking about.

Good luck with your purchase and make sure that you get a PPI ( pre purchase inspection) done before you make an offer. I'm sure the nice folks on the 964 board will help you and give you lots of pointers. Also helpfull is to do a search on the 964 and read the archives. Lots of good info.

Adrian

Dear Kim,
I advise you to purchase a buyers guide for the 964. I wrote one in my book available from www.bentleypublishers.com (book title is at the bottom of this post). This is a comprehensive look at the 964. It will answer your questions and provide all the places you need to look, where to look and what to look for.
I prmoise you that this will be the best money you have spent before embarking on a purchase.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

PS: The normally aspirated 964 came with a 3.6L engine not a 3.8L unless you are purchasing a RS 3.8.

97*Sunshine

Thanks for moving the topic. I appreciate it.

This particular 911 has a 3.8L engine. Thanks for the link to the book.

Kim

Adrian

Dear Kim,
If this has a 3.8L it is a converted 3.6L and I would get as much information on the engine as possible. Who did the job? How long ago? etc etc. I also find it hard to believe the mileage of 95,000 miles unless this is body mileage since new.
You will need to know original mileage and then the mileage since the engine conversion.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

PS: It is very easy to replace the speedo that is why I am suggesting you look much deeper into this.

stefang

Is this the one offered by europeanlocators? They had a black one there for a while. Do a search on 3.8 - a rennlister had done a thorough PPI and found a host of problems. If not, never mind, but have you had a professional PPI (Pre Purchase Inspection) done yet?

Jay H

Kim:

The car you describe has these items that cause me a little concern:

Unknown mileage on a 3.8 conversion that still drips a little.
Repaint that "You can tell it was repaint" (which in my mind, equals a questionable job if you can readily see it was repainted).
Incorrectly operating climate control (what else is wrong with that electrical system?).

I'd just plain walk away if it was me unless the car was priced well under $20,000. The resale value on cars like these are low due to the repaint and questionable motor. A 3.8 conversion can actually add value in some cases if it's a well documented rebuild done by a reputable, well known shop. If not, it's probably a value reducer...

Abused 964's are expensive to make right. The climate control fix might be cheap, or very expensive. I'm not saying this car is abused, but from your short description, there are issues that make me question the car already.

No used 911 is perfect. There is always something it seems. But, buying a rat tends to be more of a headache than it's worth. It's best to find a more cared for example if in fact this car has serious issues.

Definitely proceed if you like this car, but by all means, have a knowledgeable Porsche tech look this car over very carefully before you sign on the dotted line.

Jay
90 964

97*Sunshine

Jay,

I'm not sure about an engine swap, and really don't know if I'd be able to re-create anything or not, so I'm assuming there isn't anything for the better that's been done-unless it happens to be the RS model which I didn't ask. I was under the assumption that in '90 they went to the 3.8 from the 3.2, but I'm no expert on these cars, which is why I'm here. I also think that the mileage is iffy - but at a price of $14,000, the car was worth asking about and possibly taking a look at. I have many pictures of the car and it really isn't a bad looking vehicle, but at this point, a 5+ hour drive doesn't seem to be worth the hassle this car may bring later on. Unfortunately if we buy from an independent seller, we won't be able to have anyone I know look at it before hand unless its closer to home.


Kim

P.S. stefang - it's not the europeanlocator vehicle. This one is silver with black interior, but thanks for the heads-up.

Oilslick964

Kim,
It isn't an RS because that car did not come in a targa. Either it has had an engine swap, a 3.8l conversion or it is actually a 3.6l car (which I'd be willing to bet is the case). $14k is cheap for a 95k mile car if it has been reasonable well cared for. You could spend quite a bit sorting out the other issues and still be in a very nice 964 for well under $20k. If you don't want it, send me the contact info, I'd be interested!

stefang

Kim,

I don't think the 964 RS was even imported into the US. If it's really a 3.8 it's likely a bored out motor, rather than a swap for a Euro 3.8. The tricky thing is that if it's not done right it could be trouble. Then again it may simply be that the seller is confused or misspoke.

You'd normally arrange for a PPI at a Porsche shop or dealer close to the car. Pretty much standard procedure for older 911 purchase, especially with an iffy car like that. You may also be able to get a Rennlister to give an initial look see.
Where is the car located?
$14k for a 964 is a pretty good price. It may be worth pursuing further, even given the unknowns.

Jay H

Kim:

Just some more background for you as you continue to search for cars:

[Edit: a couple other's beat me to the punch above]

The 964 series was started in 1989 with the C4. In 1990 the C2 was added and they (the 964's) have 3.6 liter engines. The 3.6 continued until the water cooled 996 was introduced in 1999.

The RS model was not imported officially to the US (though we wish it was).

There is a 3.8 liter conversion that can be done to 3.6 liter engines. Full documentation is very helpful to a car's history when this conversion is done. Why was it done, who did it, at what mileage are all good questions to ask.

$14,000 is a very low price for the New England area for a 964. There probably is a reason for this low price... A nice 964 will probably be over $20,000. Very nice late model (1993 to 1994) 964's may even approach the $30k mark.

Mileage is not overly important on a Porsche, as long as proper maintenance and repairs are done on a regular basis. I've seen very low mile 911's that have been trashed and very high mile 911's that are almost showroom perfect. 911's don't take too well to defered maintenance or neglect for extended periods of time, though they are quite well built machines that will still run even with abuse. It does get expensive to get an abused car up to high standards.

The 95,000 miles on this car could be fine IF the car was well maintained.

When you are at the $14k price point on a 964, a thorough PPI is mandatory if you don't have deep pockets and are on a budget. You get what you pay for in this instance.

Digital pictures are nice, but they don't necessarily tell the full story (depending on how the pictures are shot and at what angle, distance, resolution, etc.).

Good luck in your search,

Jay
90 964

97*Sunshine

So now I'm wondering if it really is a 3.6 and the owner mis-spoke. I'll call tonight to find out. I really appreciate everyones input on this. The more educated I can be, the better.

The car, right now, is in PA - just outside Philly. As far as maintenance - the current owner said that the car had been hammered on, but it is a Porsche and they love to be driven.... Also since he's the 4th? owner, it will be hard to re-create much. I know the current owner did replace the speedo just recently, but can't be sure of anything prior.

Kim

Adrian

Dear Kim,
Based on your posts your knowledge level is low on Porsches and 964s in general. Before you part with your hard earned cash I advise you learn a lot more. When I wrote my book I had people like yourself in mind. If you purchase a piece of junk you are going to be spending an awful lot of time on this forum and in the bank managers office. $US14k for a 1990 Targa is very cheap. I hope you have a good $US6-10K in reserve to be able to fix it up.
I realise that it is your money and your risk but like any car a lemon is a lemon and a Porsche lemon is soul destroying.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

ian c - u.k

dont know anything about usa prices , so cannot help on that !!!

just how can you " tell its been painted" ??

stonechips are expected , as is the odd car-park/shopping trolley mark at this age !!!

but .............. a caring owner would obviously look after this .
if you can tell it has been painted was the caring owner not really that caring ?
or , was it spruced up at as little cost as possible to make it look better for re-sale ???????????????????????????????

service history is good , but not really worth the paper its written on .
anyone can totally abuse a car for 12k then pay for the plugs and oil change !!!
what you really need is a pile of receipts for all the RIGHT work !!!!!
( a receipt for a new clutch every 3 months will tell a story , eh doug/tony)

if the owner says this and that has been done , you wanna see the paperwork to back it up !!!
most enthusiast find an independant they are happy with , and use them as much as they need .
most independants with recognise a telephone discription of a car they care for and can verify there work .

you should look for everything you would look for if you were buying a 3000 car ........... then take a minute and think that you are buying a car for nearly 5times that !!!

if you are happy with that .............. then look at the porsche specialised things etc mentioned in adrians book and phil raby's book .

welcome to the forum , good luck , and remember 2 old sayings .............
" fools rush in " and " a fool and his money are easily parted "

ian c - u.k

http://www.911virgin.com/