964 road suspension recommendations
10-07-2020, 01:42 PM
#31
Rennlist Member
I think there is definitely a lot more to go down if I really desired, but to be fair i had to lower the rear portion to clear my tie rod bolt about 4 or 5 threads. I'm guessing this is pretty close to how it would have been out of the box if I didn't need that adjustment. I'll probably go down about 4 more threads front and rear, take it out for one more shake down to make sure I'm still not rubbing and then seek out another alignment (may hold off until I do rear spring plate bushings first though).
10-11-2020, 05:28 AM
#32
Burning Brakes
After finishing my blue 964 Track Qpe i have the same task for my convertible for the winter. Having a better ride at RS heigh, better response and in the end, a more "modern" feeling compared to the now fitted H&R coils.
I decided against Öhlins and for a KW V3 after discussing this task with some experienced workshop owners. The reason ist: in germany, the KW is well know, is comfortable, super service (not far away from me) and it works with Tüv. The Öhlins is said to be brilliant, but no real experiences here in germany. No "watertight" tüv solution and so, i decided for the "cheaper" KW. Cost was not at my decision matrix, so that was/is just a nice add-on fact.
But besides the coils itself, i replace every bushing at the suspension with PU rubber (the a-arms have already PU), monobal tie rods, new sway bushings, new wheel bearings, replace the brake dics, overhaul the calipers, new gearbox-mount, new engine mounts (RS), RS-shifter upgraded with unibal bushings, new clutch, new clutch slave cylinder.... so in the end everything that gives me a direct or indirect feedback and could possible disturb the driving experience... additionally i will have a fresh upholstery for the driver seat, a refreshed RS-steering wheel with extension and new speakers :-)
Nearly all parts are ordered or have already been arrived at my garage... so the winter could come...
So i guess, the decision between Öhlins and KW is just one marginal part you have to do. In the end, the result will be driven by the complete package of upgrades you have choosen and properly done...
I decided against Öhlins and for a KW V3 after discussing this task with some experienced workshop owners. The reason ist: in germany, the KW is well know, is comfortable, super service (not far away from me) and it works with Tüv. The Öhlins is said to be brilliant, but no real experiences here in germany. No "watertight" tüv solution and so, i decided for the "cheaper" KW. Cost was not at my decision matrix, so that was/is just a nice add-on fact.
But besides the coils itself, i replace every bushing at the suspension with PU rubber (the a-arms have already PU), monobal tie rods, new sway bushings, new wheel bearings, replace the brake dics, overhaul the calipers, new gearbox-mount, new engine mounts (RS), RS-shifter upgraded with unibal bushings, new clutch, new clutch slave cylinder.... so in the end everything that gives me a direct or indirect feedback and could possible disturb the driving experience... additionally i will have a fresh upholstery for the driver seat, a refreshed RS-steering wheel with extension and new speakers :-)
Nearly all parts are ordered or have already been arrived at my garage... so the winter could come...
So i guess, the decision between Öhlins and KW is just one marginal part you have to do. In the end, the result will be driven by the complete package of upgrades you have choosen and properly done...
Last edited by koenig_roland; 10-11-2020 at 10:45 AM.
10-11-2020, 06:58 AM
#33
Not long after buying my C4 manual, I fitted Bilstein PSS10's. Could never get along with them. Tried multiple setups, researched different settings, went to a softer spring front and rear but just always felt the were crashy and lacked sophistication. Late last year I changed to KW V3's. Performance between the two feels comparable but the quality of damping on V3's just feels better to me. Much better small bump compliance and much more settled on surface changes. Separate compression and rebound is actually a really good feature and height adjustability was a lot better too. Actually think on smoother tarmac, the Bilstein may have just had it. But overall grip levels on multiple surfaces, driving b roads and twisties, the KW's win hands down for me.
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WantA997 (10-19-2020)
10-19-2020, 05:41 PM
#35
I did this with Koni FSD's and Eibach springs. Also replaced drop links at both ends along with wishbone and ARB bushes. Handling was terrible until it went to a suspension specialist company with a really good rep to set it up for the roads I drive on. The effect was night and day getting the whole geometry and ride height done properly was they key for me.
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911Jetta (10-25-2020)
10-25-2020, 02:42 PM
#36
I just upgraded my car with Bilstein PSS10s and corner balancing. It's a street car that will see an occasional autocross and lots of canyon miles. Wevo engine mounts (soft pillows), too. Such a huge change over the stock setup. Much more connected than before.
10-26-2020, 03:54 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
I just finished changing to Koni FSD plus M030 springs in all 4 corners on my 964 C4. I will get elephant racing to do the alignment when the engine is back in. I have Koni FSD and stock springs on my 1991 C2 Tiptronic and love it in that car.
10-27-2020, 01:54 PM
#39
Rennlist Member
Originally Posted by RicardoD
I just finished changing to Koni FSD plus M030 springs in all 4 corners on my 964 C4. I will get elephant racing to do the alignment when the engine is back in. I have Koni FSD and stock springs on my 1991 C2 Tiptronic and love it in that car.
I have PSS9 dialed in for DE and can be a buy stiff for roads but great for Sunday morning runs.
My brother chose M030 with B6/B8 Bilsteins for his 993 C2 and I like it for 80% street and 20% Sunday morning runs.
My 964 H&R green coilovers ride softer than both of the above and perfect for an around the town putt putt. Cobalt's suggestion of using red springs instead of green for any type of track work is spot on.
04-23-2021, 11:33 AM
#40
Rennlist Member
EDIT........Just saw your reply! Thanks.
Spring rates original (Ohlins R/T kit for 964):
Front 65/200/50 Rear 65/200/90
New:
Front 65/200/40 Rear 65/200/80
This is what Ohlin’s recommended based on my feedback of wanting more compliance for UK roads. Seems a minor adjustment, but was noticeable and happy with it now.
Front 65/200/50 Rear 65/200/90
New:
Front 65/200/40 Rear 65/200/80
This is what Ohlin’s recommended based on my feedback of wanting more compliance for UK roads. Seems a minor adjustment, but was noticeable and happy with it now.
Last edited by GBX; 04-23-2021 at 11:35 AM.
04-23-2021, 01:26 PM
#41
Burning Brakes
Yes very subjective topic of course - but still fun for sure. Everybody has a different roads, driving styles, expectations, comfort thresholds, and budgets. That said here's my take:
Like you I only drive on the street - curvy mountain 2 lane twisties more than anything. I had a "low end" H&R coil over set when I bought the car - I think it goes for $1100 ish, I'm sure it was better than stock - adn allowed the car to be lowered.
A year ago I went to KW V3 and love them. I will admit there is a smidge more body roll at the rebound setting I prefer (for harshness over our roads) but frankly it's minor complaint. I love the V3s. Wholeheartedly recommend. They run about $3200 but I know people get 10% through Pelican (once a year?).
I've heard great stuff about upper end Ohlins - but I think they might be closer to $6000 - somebody else feel free to correct me. For what _I_ do - not justifiable. Again goes back to use, budget etc.
I see coilover setups pop up on Pelican and Rennlist. Depending on your urgency you can watch for a lightly used used set..? On top of parts price you'll wan to budget in install labor if you don't do it yourself, corner balance and alignment. Not uncommon to find other suspension needs when in there, too...strut mounts, spring plates, bushings, who knows...
Just my .02
Brandon
'91 Turbo
Like you I only drive on the street - curvy mountain 2 lane twisties more than anything. I had a "low end" H&R coil over set when I bought the car - I think it goes for $1100 ish, I'm sure it was better than stock - adn allowed the car to be lowered.
A year ago I went to KW V3 and love them. I will admit there is a smidge more body roll at the rebound setting I prefer (for harshness over our roads) but frankly it's minor complaint. I love the V3s. Wholeheartedly recommend. They run about $3200 but I know people get 10% through Pelican (once a year?).
I've heard great stuff about upper end Ohlins - but I think they might be closer to $6000 - somebody else feel free to correct me. For what _I_ do - not justifiable. Again goes back to use, budget etc.
I see coilover setups pop up on Pelican and Rennlist. Depending on your urgency you can watch for a lightly used used set..? On top of parts price you'll wan to budget in install labor if you don't do it yourself, corner balance and alignment. Not uncommon to find other suspension needs when in there, too...strut mounts, spring plates, bushings, who knows...
Just my .02
Brandon
'91 Turbo
Last edited by urquattro20Vt; 04-23-2021 at 01:29 PM.
04-23-2021, 08:53 PM
#42
Addict
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Lew,
You've received a lot of good recommendations based on individual owners experiences, all of which are valid in their own right. So rather than throw in yet another suggestion and add to your dilemor, I'm going to recommend a systematic approach that should allow you to achieve the optimal balance that you are looking for without breaking the bank.
My first approach for any client is to get the best out of what you have, so fit a great set of Porsche approved tires and have the 4 wheel geometry set to exact factory figures - or a blend of stock & RS if the car is lowered.
Next on the list must be the springs and dampers. Best advise - keep it simple. I've used all of the above mentioned packages and more from Bilstein (B6, B8, PSS10), Koni, KW (V1, V3), Ohlins and of late Tractive. What I can definitively tell you is that all of them compare favorably with your worn out standard shocks & springs - you cannot make a bad choice as they are all better than what you have. Since we're looking at a cabrio I would not go stiff since the torsional rigidity of the shell will interfere with the handling, so my priority would be to go in easy with the Bilstein B6 damper & Eibach spring set up (sold together as a B8 kit). This will lower the car to RS height, so set up to RS specifications and you're good to go. If you can afford Ohlins - don't buy them just yet...
Because next up I'm going to tell you to also replace ALL the suspension bushes. Our 964's are the best part of 30 years old, so the reality is that the rubber bushes have deteriorated to the point where they will be tired at best, delaminating at worst. On the shopping list should be top mounts (original factory only), wishbone bushes (original rubber or harder RS rubber - Elephant Racing make them), anti-roll bar bushes, steering rack mounts, track rods and drop links if worn. The rear trailing arm bushes are usually ok, but do check the inner spring plate bushes and replace if the boots are damaged (again E R have these available).
Whilst you're there you may as well closely check the brake lines, flexis and calipers, because when we get the car handling properly corner exit speeds will be higher so you will use and need the brakes more often.
Finally, assuming that the car is a C2 manual, consider fitting a LSD if it does not have one. We favour the Wavetrac, but the Quaiffe is also a good choice for a road car. If the car is a C4 you don't need one - the C4 box has a lateral differential as standard.
Hope this helps.
You've received a lot of good recommendations based on individual owners experiences, all of which are valid in their own right. So rather than throw in yet another suggestion and add to your dilemor, I'm going to recommend a systematic approach that should allow you to achieve the optimal balance that you are looking for without breaking the bank.
My first approach for any client is to get the best out of what you have, so fit a great set of Porsche approved tires and have the 4 wheel geometry set to exact factory figures - or a blend of stock & RS if the car is lowered.
Next on the list must be the springs and dampers. Best advise - keep it simple. I've used all of the above mentioned packages and more from Bilstein (B6, B8, PSS10), Koni, KW (V1, V3), Ohlins and of late Tractive. What I can definitively tell you is that all of them compare favorably with your worn out standard shocks & springs - you cannot make a bad choice as they are all better than what you have. Since we're looking at a cabrio I would not go stiff since the torsional rigidity of the shell will interfere with the handling, so my priority would be to go in easy with the Bilstein B6 damper & Eibach spring set up (sold together as a B8 kit). This will lower the car to RS height, so set up to RS specifications and you're good to go. If you can afford Ohlins - don't buy them just yet...
Because next up I'm going to tell you to also replace ALL the suspension bushes. Our 964's are the best part of 30 years old, so the reality is that the rubber bushes have deteriorated to the point where they will be tired at best, delaminating at worst. On the shopping list should be top mounts (original factory only), wishbone bushes (original rubber or harder RS rubber - Elephant Racing make them), anti-roll bar bushes, steering rack mounts, track rods and drop links if worn. The rear trailing arm bushes are usually ok, but do check the inner spring plate bushes and replace if the boots are damaged (again E R have these available).
Whilst you're there you may as well closely check the brake lines, flexis and calipers, because when we get the car handling properly corner exit speeds will be higher so you will use and need the brakes more often.
Finally, assuming that the car is a C2 manual, consider fitting a LSD if it does not have one. We favour the Wavetrac, but the Quaiffe is also a good choice for a road car. If the car is a C4 you don't need one - the C4 box has a lateral differential as standard.
Hope this helps.
04-23-2021, 08:58 PM
#43
I would just get a set of JRZ pro and be done with it. Costs a little more than pss10 and KW s. But, really comfortable for road use and can be dialed up if you ever feel like doing auto X or a track day. Get some new powerflex bushings while doing it. It will transform the car. You can check out my 964 barn find thread. Just been thru exactly the same thing.
04-24-2021, 05:11 AM
#44
Instructor
Lew,
You've received a lot of good recommendations based on individual owners experiences, all of which are valid in their own right. So rather than throw in yet another suggestion and add to your dilemor, I'm going to recommend a systematic approach that should allow you to achieve the optimal balance that you are looking for without breaking the bank.
My first approach for any client is to get the best out of what you have, so fit a great set of Porsche approved tires and have the 4 wheel geometry set to exact factory figures - or a blend of stock & RS if the car is lowered.
Next on the list must be the springs and dampers. Best advise - keep it simple. I've used all of the above mentioned packages and more from Bilstein (B6, B8, PSS10), Koni, KW (V1, V3), Ohlins and of late Tractive. What I can definitively tell you is that all of them compare favorably with your worn out standard shocks & springs - you cannot make a bad choice as they are all better than what you have. Since we're looking at a cabrio I would not go stiff since the torsional rigidity of the shell will interfere with the handling, so my priority would be to go in easy with the Bilstein B6 damper & Eibach spring set up (sold together as a B8 kit). This will lower the car to RS height, so set up to RS specifications and you're good to go. If you can afford Ohlins - don't buy them just yet...
Because next up I'm going to tell you to also replace ALL the suspension bushes. Our 964's are the best part of 30 years old, so the reality is that the rubber bushes have deteriorated to the point where they will be tired at best, delaminating at worst. On the shopping list should be top mounts (original factory only), wishbone bushes (original rubber or harder RS rubber - Elephant Racing make them), anti-roll bar bushes, steering rack mounts, track rods and drop links if worn. The rear trailing arm bushes are usually ok, but do check the inner spring plate bushes and replace if the boots are damaged (again E R have these available).
Whilst you're there you may as well closely check the brake lines, flexis and calipers, because when we get the car handling properly corner exit speeds will be higher so you will use and need the brakes more often.
Finally, assuming that the car is a C2 manual, consider fitting a LSD if it does not have one. We favour the Wavetrac, but the Quaiffe is also a good choice for a road car. If the car is a C4 you don't need one - the C4 box has a lateral differential as standard.
Hope this helps.
You've received a lot of good recommendations based on individual owners experiences, all of which are valid in their own right. So rather than throw in yet another suggestion and add to your dilemor, I'm going to recommend a systematic approach that should allow you to achieve the optimal balance that you are looking for without breaking the bank.
My first approach for any client is to get the best out of what you have, so fit a great set of Porsche approved tires and have the 4 wheel geometry set to exact factory figures - or a blend of stock & RS if the car is lowered.
Next on the list must be the springs and dampers. Best advise - keep it simple. I've used all of the above mentioned packages and more from Bilstein (B6, B8, PSS10), Koni, KW (V1, V3), Ohlins and of late Tractive. What I can definitively tell you is that all of them compare favorably with your worn out standard shocks & springs - you cannot make a bad choice as they are all better than what you have. Since we're looking at a cabrio I would not go stiff since the torsional rigidity of the shell will interfere with the handling, so my priority would be to go in easy with the Bilstein B6 damper & Eibach spring set up (sold together as a B8 kit). This will lower the car to RS height, so set up to RS specifications and you're good to go. If you can afford Ohlins - don't buy them just yet...
Because next up I'm going to tell you to also replace ALL the suspension bushes. Our 964's are the best part of 30 years old, so the reality is that the rubber bushes have deteriorated to the point where they will be tired at best, delaminating at worst. On the shopping list should be top mounts (original factory only), wishbone bushes (original rubber or harder RS rubber - Elephant Racing make them), anti-roll bar bushes, steering rack mounts, track rods and drop links if worn. The rear trailing arm bushes are usually ok, but do check the inner spring plate bushes and replace if the boots are damaged (again E R have these available).
Whilst you're there you may as well closely check the brake lines, flexis and calipers, because when we get the car handling properly corner exit speeds will be higher so you will use and need the brakes more often.
Finally, assuming that the car is a C2 manual, consider fitting a LSD if it does not have one. We favour the Wavetrac, but the Quaiffe is also a good choice for a road car. If the car is a C4 you don't need one - the C4 box has a lateral differential as standard.
Hope this helps.
I like your recommendations to the OP but the ‘consider fitting an LSD’ suggestion for a road car doesn’t make any sense to me. Can you elaborate why?
04-24-2021, 03:58 PM
#45
Lew,
You've received a lot of good recommendations based on individual owners experiences, all of which are valid in their own right. So rather than throw in yet another suggestion and add to your dilemor, I'm going to recommend a systematic approach that should allow you to achieve the optimal balance that you are looking for without breaking the bank.
My first approach for any client is to get the best out of what you have, so fit a great set of Porsche approved tires and have the 4 wheel geometry set to exact factory figures - or a blend of stock & RS if the car is lowered.
Next on the list must be the springs and dampers. Best advise - keep it simple. I've used all of the above mentioned packages and more from Bilstein (B6, B8, PSS10), Koni, KW (V1, V3), Ohlins and of late Tractive. What I can definitively tell you is that all of them compare favorably with your worn out standard shocks & springs - you cannot make a bad choice as they are all better than what you have. Since we're looking at a cabrio I would not go stiff since the torsional rigidity of the shell will interfere with the handling, so my priority would be to go in easy with the Bilstein B6 damper & Eibach spring set up (sold together as a B8 kit). This will lower the car to RS height, so set up to RS specifications and you're good to go. If you can afford Ohlins - don't buy them just yet...
Because next up I'm going to tell you to also replace ALL the suspension bushes. Our 964's are the best part of 30 years old, so the reality is that the rubber bushes have deteriorated to the point where they will be tired at best, delaminating at worst. On the shopping list should be top mounts (original factory only), wishbone bushes (original rubber or harder RS rubber - Elephant Racing make them), anti-roll bar bushes, steering rack mounts, track rods and drop links if worn. The rear trailing arm bushes are usually ok, but do check the inner spring plate bushes and replace if the boots are damaged (again E R have these available).
Whilst you're there you may as well closely check the brake lines, flexis and calipers, because when we get the car handling properly corner exit speeds will be higher so you will use and need the brakes more often.
Finally, assuming that the car is a C2 manual, consider fitting a LSD if it does not have one. We favour the Wavetrac, but the Quaiffe is also a good choice for a road car. If the car is a C4 you don't need one - the C4 box has a lateral differential as standard.
Hope this helps.
You've received a lot of good recommendations based on individual owners experiences, all of which are valid in their own right. So rather than throw in yet another suggestion and add to your dilemor, I'm going to recommend a systematic approach that should allow you to achieve the optimal balance that you are looking for without breaking the bank.
My first approach for any client is to get the best out of what you have, so fit a great set of Porsche approved tires and have the 4 wheel geometry set to exact factory figures - or a blend of stock & RS if the car is lowered.
Next on the list must be the springs and dampers. Best advise - keep it simple. I've used all of the above mentioned packages and more from Bilstein (B6, B8, PSS10), Koni, KW (V1, V3), Ohlins and of late Tractive. What I can definitively tell you is that all of them compare favorably with your worn out standard shocks & springs - you cannot make a bad choice as they are all better than what you have. Since we're looking at a cabrio I would not go stiff since the torsional rigidity of the shell will interfere with the handling, so my priority would be to go in easy with the Bilstein B6 damper & Eibach spring set up (sold together as a B8 kit). This will lower the car to RS height, so set up to RS specifications and you're good to go. If you can afford Ohlins - don't buy them just yet...
Because next up I'm going to tell you to also replace ALL the suspension bushes. Our 964's are the best part of 30 years old, so the reality is that the rubber bushes have deteriorated to the point where they will be tired at best, delaminating at worst. On the shopping list should be top mounts (original factory only), wishbone bushes (original rubber or harder RS rubber - Elephant Racing make them), anti-roll bar bushes, steering rack mounts, track rods and drop links if worn. The rear trailing arm bushes are usually ok, but do check the inner spring plate bushes and replace if the boots are damaged (again E R have these available).
Whilst you're there you may as well closely check the brake lines, flexis and calipers, because when we get the car handling properly corner exit speeds will be higher so you will use and need the brakes more often.
Finally, assuming that the car is a C2 manual, consider fitting a LSD if it does not have one. We favour the Wavetrac, but the Quaiffe is also a good choice for a road car. If the car is a C4 you don't need one - the C4 box has a lateral differential as standard.
Hope this helps.
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93c2cab (04-24-2021)