BUYER BEWARE- BLACK 1990 C2 COUPE
01-24-2018, 02:24 AM
#16
in the blink of an eye. Definitely a build I’d like to replicate.
For someone looking for a solid street/track car, this would fit the bill nicely. Just wasn’t for me and wasn’t as advertised. And from the PMs I’ve received, I’m not the only one who found out the hard way. Just the first one to speak up.
01-24-2018, 04:16 AM
#17
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Long Beach, CA & Alexandria, EGYPT
Posts: 1,532
Received 297 Likes
on
150 Posts
ruined is a pretty harsh word, warning as you mentioned is more like it and was my intent for anyone led to believe (as I was) that this car has no issues. It does and they are substantial. On the other hand I believe I was quite complementary of it mechanically. It was VERY fast and pulled like crazy above 5k. Clearly because of the 993SS cams where a normal 964 just simply runs out of air. And, this car revved amazingly well. Tap the throttle and you were at 6k
in the blink of an eye. Definitely a build I’d like to replicate.
For someone looking for a solid street/track car, this would fit the bill nicely. Just wasn’t for me and wasn’t as advertised. And from the PMs I’ve received, I’m not the only one who found out the hard way. Just the first one to speak up.
01-24-2018, 04:44 AM
#18
none of my business, but making a topic with "Buyer Beware" is enough to ruin a cars reputation forever..i actually feel bad for the next owner that buys it not the current owner! You should post a link to the ad. Its pretty crappy that sellers can't be transparent & you had to spend time & money to see problems that could have been mentioned by seller ... luckily you didn't just jump the gun and buy sight unseen!
Or, should I have just not said anything?
No good deed...
SMH
01-24-2018, 10:05 AM
#19
Racer
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: S. E., VA USA
Posts: 438
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Lorenzoh, could you describe clear coat issues on driver's side fender. My car has developed what look like a webbing of small, hairline cracks in the area where the fender curves down to meet the frunk lid. They are hard to see. Light has to catch them just right. Always seemed to me to be under the clear as I can't feel them and can't buff them out. The affected area has grown over the years up and down this area. Not sure what causes it, but if its the same defect in the same area and both cars being 90s I might think it might be something with original paint. My car is silver and has been repainted. Looks to me like paint underneath is cracking and showing through topcoat.
01-24-2018, 10:59 AM
#20
Rennlist Member
Not everybody's opinion of condition is the same, especially when talking about a car that old.
01-24-2018, 01:29 PM
#21
That has ZERO to do with a cars age or someone else's "opinion" as you suggest. If I asked you if your car has rust on the drivers door around the handle and you said no, then I showed up to check and there was rust around the EXACT spot I asked about - you'd either be lying or blind (or both).
01-24-2018, 01:34 PM
#22
Lorenzoh, could you describe clear coat issues on driver's side fender. My car has developed what look like a webbing of small, hairline cracks in the area where the fender curves down to meet the frunk lid. They are hard to see. Light has to catch them just right. Always seemed to me to be under the clear as I can't feel them and can't buff them out. The affected area has grown over the years up and down this area. Not sure what causes it, but if its the same defect in the same area and both cars being 90s I might think it might be something with original paint. My car is silver and has been repainted. Looks to me like paint underneath is cracking and showing through topcoat.
01-24-2018, 02:23 PM
#23
Addict
Rennlist Member
Rennlist Member
Porsche used clearcoats on all of their paints in the 1990’s with exception to certain base colors like Guards Red. I can’t recall if black and white were also single stage, someone else will hopefully chime in.
Lorenzoh I agree with you that if you ask a specific question about a dent or rust there should not be difference in the answer, it’s either yes or no and everyone should have the same answer.
But to what Vegas993 is saying, there seems to be a very big discrepancy between one persons definition of a number 2 car vs someone else’s. I learned the hard way when I had someone inspect a 928 for me years ago. I asked a guy that was actively showing his car in PCA concours and placing well if he could inspect and give me his opinion on cosmetic condition. The person believed the paint was in great condition and original and the interior was in very good condition with exception to a known tear in the drivers seat bolster. He also thought the car could be concours worthy with some polishing and new drivers seat cover. So I bought it sight unseen. When the car was delivered a week later I knew the second if came off the enclosed trailer that the car had been resprayed and that it wasn’t a great paint job. When I started inspecting the interior I immediately found overspray throughout the interior where someone had covered up the wear/tear with a fresh coat of interior paint. What made it worse was that the paint came off as soon as I started conditioning the seats and then the ugly wear came through. I learned the hard way what to look for on that car and to not immediately trust another persons definition of concours. Needless to say I took a hit on that car when I sold it 18 months later because I was honest about its condition and made a point to highlight what I knew when I sold it.
I bought my Targa sight unseen using what’s I mentioned earlier in the thread and while I expected that I might miss something in the pictures I found the car was as represented and what I expected with exception to a few dings. Fortunately the local paintless dent repair was able to take care of the dings (except one) and the car is fantastic. I was able to place second in the local PCA concours a few months after buying the car which says a lot about condition.
My point is that only the person buying should decide what is acceptable to them unless they are paying a highly knowledgeable and respected professional to perform an inspection.
Lorenzoh I agree with you that if you ask a specific question about a dent or rust there should not be difference in the answer, it’s either yes or no and everyone should have the same answer.
But to what Vegas993 is saying, there seems to be a very big discrepancy between one persons definition of a number 2 car vs someone else’s. I learned the hard way when I had someone inspect a 928 for me years ago. I asked a guy that was actively showing his car in PCA concours and placing well if he could inspect and give me his opinion on cosmetic condition. The person believed the paint was in great condition and original and the interior was in very good condition with exception to a known tear in the drivers seat bolster. He also thought the car could be concours worthy with some polishing and new drivers seat cover. So I bought it sight unseen. When the car was delivered a week later I knew the second if came off the enclosed trailer that the car had been resprayed and that it wasn’t a great paint job. When I started inspecting the interior I immediately found overspray throughout the interior where someone had covered up the wear/tear with a fresh coat of interior paint. What made it worse was that the paint came off as soon as I started conditioning the seats and then the ugly wear came through. I learned the hard way what to look for on that car and to not immediately trust another persons definition of concours. Needless to say I took a hit on that car when I sold it 18 months later because I was honest about its condition and made a point to highlight what I knew when I sold it.
I bought my Targa sight unseen using what’s I mentioned earlier in the thread and while I expected that I might miss something in the pictures I found the car was as represented and what I expected with exception to a few dings. Fortunately the local paintless dent repair was able to take care of the dings (except one) and the car is fantastic. I was able to place second in the local PCA concours a few months after buying the car which says a lot about condition.
My point is that only the person buying should decide what is acceptable to them unless they are paying a highly knowledgeable and respected professional to perform an inspection.
01-24-2018, 03:52 PM
#24
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Long Beach, CA & Alexandria, EGYPT
Posts: 1,532
Received 297 Likes
on
150 Posts
Last time I checked cars don’t have reputations, people do. And in this instance I gave an honest, first hand account of the cars condition. Any reasonable person or potential buyer reading this should be able to understand that and realize that the issue isn’t the car or it’s condition. The issue is the seller and his misrepresentation of the car.
Or, should I have just not said anything?
No good deed...
SMH
01-24-2018, 06:21 PM
#26
Rennlist Member
Maybe so but if he knew you were going to look at it, like most people would, why would he lie about it? I think a lot of people have unrealistic expectations from the current 964 market. Personally, I would never publicly bash someone's credibility based on the car not being exactly as I envisioned it, having purchased several older used cars in the last 35 years, they are seldom exactly as described.
What Marine Blue said.
What Marine Blue said.
Last edited by Vegas993; 01-24-2018 at 06:59 PM.
01-24-2018, 07:06 PM
#27
Rennlist Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Long Beach, CA & Alexandria, EGYPT
Posts: 1,532
Received 297 Likes
on
150 Posts
Maybe so but if he knew you were going to look at it, like most people would, why would he lie about it? I think a lot of people have unrealistic expectations from the current 964 market. Personally, I would never publicly bash someone's credibility based on the car not being exactly as I envisioned it, having purchased several older used cars in the last 35 years, they are seldom exactly as described.
What Marine Blue said.
What Marine Blue said.
01-25-2018, 09:58 AM
#28
Rennlist Member
Actually solid colors used on the 964 are single stage and only the metallic colors were base clear. The 993 was the turning point and many of the colors were just begining to change formulas to water base paints and have multiple formulas for the same color depending on product used.
As far as a valuation of condition. Everyone wants to believe that their car is a #1 but in reality most barely qualify as a #4. Most everything I see on the market I would make a new category of a 5 or 6 for and they IMO fall in this area.
I sat through some of the process of looking at this car before it was decided to take a look at and I agree the seller was far from forthcoming. After hearing the description of the mods and what the seller was offering as far as the cagey info I suspected this was a tracked car that was less than well taken care of. Although so few cars are really as represented these days you have to look at them all to tell for sure. Everyone wants top dollar so they will be less than honest some much more so than others.
What we have seen with this market is identical to what I experienced back in the 80's grey market. When I first visited Europe looking for cars there were a number of very nice cars for reasonable money. Then peoples eyes were opened and prices escalated. As the good cars went for more money than people wanted to spend, out came the crap and so did the lipstick. Suddenly you needed to be an expert or be taken for a ride. I loved asking if the red paint on the muffler was part of the cars original factory paint?
People expect you to be emotional and uneducated and they are out there just not on rennlist.
I look at a lot of cars either in person or through pictures and emails and I can count on my hands in the last 3-5 years cars that were properly represented. Either owner ignorance or downright deception in either case you need to know what your looking at today more than ever. IMO the seller was less than honest and purposely vague in his responses. It is a shame and honestly he has every right to ask what he wants but honest answers to honest questions is a must and so many hide behind "nice condition for its age". Or "I didn't realize" or "misunderstood your question". I have seen this done here on rennlist as well.
I have to say when I was buying these cars back in the early 2000's people were doing the same thing but not as severe. It took me a year plus to find my turbo after looking at a fair portion of all the 335 imported. Most had hidden issues and were falsely advertised. The same when shopping for my 928GTS. Only my C2 which I knew the history on a year before buying it and the seller was an honest rennlister making it an easy buy. Sellers would argue with me about the originality of some of these cars and I have to say in their mind they thought I was nuts when I pointed out the obvious accident damage that was poorly repaired.
Sadly someone who doesn't know will overspend and I have seen people walk into cars like this with their eyes wide open and not care. They wanted a car and they buy it addressing its issues later and not worrying about cost.
What is most scary is about cars and dealers I am not at liberty to discuss, have been caught out and out lying about some cars. Selling them for top dollar as #1 cars only for the buyer to find out that they were #2 and I don't mean condition. Full resprays with apparent drip marks and obvious poor paint work sold as original factory paint. These are people that out right know better, not should know better but are considered the experts and even they will turn a blind eye in hopes the buyer doesn't know and will take risks for the big bucks.
Sadly this car will not sell here but the seller will find someone who will be happy to overpay for it or it will become another Singer. On another point there are probably more cars out there than we realize that have been purchased and had quick fixes done only to be flipped to unknowing buyers as original when they aren't. Although in many cases the buyer got a sound car but not in the condition they thought they were buying. I find more of this in the SC, 3.2 Carrera and 993 markets but if the buyer is happy and the work quality in many cases it is a moot point.
I wouldn't worry about a cars reputation. A good car can be turned into a turd very quickly and a turd can be fixed and become a nice example. Most all of these cars 10+ years ago were less then desirable now many of us have fixed these up to a level worth buying.
As far as a valuation of condition. Everyone wants to believe that their car is a #1 but in reality most barely qualify as a #4. Most everything I see on the market I would make a new category of a 5 or 6 for and they IMO fall in this area.
I sat through some of the process of looking at this car before it was decided to take a look at and I agree the seller was far from forthcoming. After hearing the description of the mods and what the seller was offering as far as the cagey info I suspected this was a tracked car that was less than well taken care of. Although so few cars are really as represented these days you have to look at them all to tell for sure. Everyone wants top dollar so they will be less than honest some much more so than others.
What we have seen with this market is identical to what I experienced back in the 80's grey market. When I first visited Europe looking for cars there were a number of very nice cars for reasonable money. Then peoples eyes were opened and prices escalated. As the good cars went for more money than people wanted to spend, out came the crap and so did the lipstick. Suddenly you needed to be an expert or be taken for a ride. I loved asking if the red paint on the muffler was part of the cars original factory paint?
People expect you to be emotional and uneducated and they are out there just not on rennlist.I look at a lot of cars either in person or through pictures and emails and I can count on my hands in the last 3-5 years cars that were properly represented. Either owner ignorance or downright deception in either case you need to know what your looking at today more than ever. IMO the seller was less than honest and purposely vague in his responses. It is a shame and honestly he has every right to ask what he wants but honest answers to honest questions is a must and so many hide behind "nice condition for its age". Or "I didn't realize" or "misunderstood your question". I have seen this done here on rennlist as well.
I have to say when I was buying these cars back in the early 2000's people were doing the same thing but not as severe. It took me a year plus to find my turbo after looking at a fair portion of all the 335 imported. Most had hidden issues and were falsely advertised. The same when shopping for my 928GTS. Only my C2 which I knew the history on a year before buying it and the seller was an honest rennlister making it an easy buy. Sellers would argue with me about the originality of some of these cars and I have to say in their mind they thought I was nuts when I pointed out the obvious accident damage that was poorly repaired.
Sadly someone who doesn't know will overspend and I have seen people walk into cars like this with their eyes wide open and not care. They wanted a car and they buy it addressing its issues later and not worrying about cost.
What is most scary is about cars and dealers I am not at liberty to discuss, have been caught out and out lying about some cars. Selling them for top dollar as #1 cars only for the buyer to find out that they were #2 and I don't mean condition. Full resprays with apparent drip marks and obvious poor paint work sold as original factory paint. These are people that out right know better, not should know better but are considered the experts and even they will turn a blind eye in hopes the buyer doesn't know and will take risks for the big bucks.
Sadly this car will not sell here but the seller will find someone who will be happy to overpay for it or it will become another Singer. On another point there are probably more cars out there than we realize that have been purchased and had quick fixes done only to be flipped to unknowing buyers as original when they aren't. Although in many cases the buyer got a sound car but not in the condition they thought they were buying. I find more of this in the SC, 3.2 Carrera and 993 markets but if the buyer is happy and the work quality in many cases it is a moot point.
I wouldn't worry about a cars reputation. A good car can be turned into a turd very quickly and a turd can be fixed and become a nice example. Most all of these cars 10+ years ago were less then desirable now many of us have fixed these up to a level worth buying.
Last edited by cobalt; 01-25-2018 at 10:25 AM.
01-25-2018, 12:10 PM
#29
Rennlist Member
I'm in Charleston early next week. Where is this car located?
01-25-2018, 02:20 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
It also depends on what you're looking for. Personally, if I were in the current market, I'd rather have a car with a completely stock engine and a rust bubble than a car with no rust bubble and an engine that's been tweaked and if I knew it were a track car, I probably wouldn't even look at it unless I Was looking for a track car but hey, that's just me.
When I started hunting back in 2011, I set out to get a White 1994 Coupe, I had no idea what the production numbers were at that time and if I did, I probably never would have found one, lol! My car was far from perfect but since I intended to keep it forever, I was willing to take the journey, which 6 years and thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours later I am still on it! The upside of that is, I know my car upside down and backwards!
For me, going to a large Porsche event like Luftgekühlt where are there are many 964's, you really get an idea of the varying conditions of these cars. There are far more average examples than there are stellar.
When I started hunting back in 2011, I set out to get a White 1994 Coupe, I had no idea what the production numbers were at that time and if I did, I probably never would have found one, lol! My car was far from perfect but since I intended to keep it forever, I was willing to take the journey, which 6 years and thousands of dollars and hundreds of hours later I am still on it! The upside of that is, I know my car upside down and backwards!
For me, going to a large Porsche event like Luftgekühlt where are there are many 964's, you really get an idea of the varying conditions of these cars. There are far more average examples than there are stellar.