dove

I am about to purchase a chip for my 964 but which one? I have seen Ruf,Roock racing and many other chips for 964,s but which one is best? Have any members had before and and after dyno's with the chips they installed and if I fit the chip myself would the car need to be retuned to accept the chip??
Paul
C2 cab

Adrian

On their own none of them. The only "chip" for want of a better word that I have seen genuine improvements with is more than just a chip. RUF offer a 964 RUF DME for around 750 Euros each. I have seen proven gains of between 10 and 15 HP with these DMEs. However that is at the flywheel. Knock off at least 12 to 15 % for transmission losses plus another few percentage points depending on your engines condition and your end result at the rear wheels may not be worth the investment.
There is no free lunch with this stuff and believe me it can also make you very sad. Sad you did not spend the money on something more productive.
I will ask you a straight up question.
Let us say you get 15 HP on the flywheel for 750 Euros. What honest difference do you think this will make to your 964 overall? Do you think you will feel it? Will it make any difference to top end speed?
This is peanut power with diamond costs.
As always though it is your money and your decision but I can think of much better ways of investing the money. You can increase acceleration simply by reducing the weight of your 964. You are lumbered with the extra widebody and cab weight anyway. Converting your cab roof to fully mechanical would do the same job as the very best of the chips on the market plus reduce your maintenance costs.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

Christer

Paul

real performance gains are possible but cost a lot of money. Why not save up and do the job properly? I think for around £10k it is perfectly possible to achieve around 290rwhp and basically have a new engine into the bargain as it would have been totally rebuilt with some 'goodies' in there.

I prefer to do the job properly, why use parts from possibly 3 different 'tuners' to try to create synergy? I would recommend a full strategy used, rather than bits here and there mainly because you will spend a lot of money in stages with little long term result.

I do not mean to rain on your parade or anything, but if you are expecting a noticeable improvement from spending £500 or so then I think you will be disappointed. Having said that, I have heard good things about Chipwizard, but would use him as part of a larger programme rather than rely on him and a metal tube where your CAT was for example to make gains...

IMHO.

Cay

I had this "50HP +" Kit in my Speedster:
http://www.albertweb.de/Porsche/Tuning/motronicl2.jpg

It costs me 5000 German Marks equal to $2.5 K. I´m driven this Kit over a range from 40K Km`s. The dyno graph shows 258 HP BEFORE (most 964
engines comes out from factory with more than 250 HP) and 298HP after - so it`s a real 40+ HP Kit.

I never had probs with it and the fuel consuption was around 1 liter more.
The increase of power was very good feelable but I dont would do that again. Why? This kit makes the 964 VERY aggressive and the most of power increase you get above 5000 rpm and so you are driving like a idiot.
Before this modifications its been very rare that I shifted up aboce 5000 rpm, after I nearly never shift up below 6000 rpm! So you get a real more aggressive riding experience but the question is if this is desireable by a convertible?

In my RS I had a so called 17+ HP chip (noone proofed that). This been
much better cuz you get the increase between 4000 - 5000 rpm and a little
more torque. Feelable but not like day & night. It`s been cool in the RS cuz
riding on the nurburgring plays mostly around 5000 rpm and so its been cool to have a little more in this rpm range.

The dangerous part of this is that there are tons of different chips around and not all are good and a bad chip really can harm your engine heavily.

So best thing is to stay with a unmodified 964 engine and at this way you can enjoy it tons of years without any probs.

Buttomline - if the power of your 964 is too low for you sell him and go for
a RS, a 964 Tu II or a 993 Bi-Tu.

dove

Dear Adrian,I have to say I have found the tone of some of your recent posts a tad negative, secondly Have you had first hand experiance of re-chipping your car?Because On this occasion I have to disagree with you,I have spoke with many owners who have seen (and have dyno tests to prove) that re-chipping does indeed improve mid range and top end performance.I know its not going to be mind blowing but improved mid range and a gain 10-15 bhp for only 750 euros is not a bad deal in my eyes at all.I find the word "lumbered" with extra weight with my car a bit strong.My car does indeed carry extra weight than a standard coupe but the performance difference believe me is minimal very minimal.I would like to hear from other rennlist members who think that the "end result at the rear wheels may not be worth the investment".
Paul
C2 cab

DaveK

OK - since you asked......

I had my car chipped a couple of years ago by JZM. At first, I felt I could tell some difference - but about 6 months ago I borrowed a stock DME from my mechanics and used that for a week - and there really wasn't any difference at all. I had my car dyno'd with my chip and saw 250bhp. I wanted to get a run with the stock DME, but we couldn't get a reading for some reason after we swapped.

For what it's worth - I did it, but I wouldn't recommend it. I don't think there is a measurable difference for the £300 I spent. Plus - when my fault codes are read by the hammer now there is always a DME failure reported - a common side effect of chipping the car apparently.

Maybe some are better than others, but I agree with Adrian and Christer. If you want your car to be quicker, spend lots. I don't think you'll notice that much difference for £500.

It's interesting that you say the performance difference is very minimal between your cab and a coupe. My answer to that would be you're probably right - but, I bet the difference between your car now and your car after having it chipped will be even more minimal. I've been out with Christer several times and I'm convinced his car is quicker than my chipped one.

tonytaylor

I have had 2 Porsches chipped by Geoff Everet, ex-AMD and was happy with both and thought the money well spent.
The first was a chip only on a 944S2 and in line with what has been previously posted actual performance gains were small but obviously present, which is typical of re-chips in normally aspirated cars, but "drivability" was improved with car pulling cleaner throughout the rev range.
My 964 is also chipped, but it was chipped to take advantage of a MAF, enlarged throttle body, high flow air filter and catbypass; - taking power to 298bhp at flywheel. Its unlikely that this kind of power would be available via a chip alone with an improvement along the lines of the 944 more likely.
I don`t agree that the difference between similar cars of diffrent weights is minimal; losing weight gives the greatest performance improvements in my experience. I work on the basis of 1bhp per 5kg. ( on track the difference is greater)

Adrian

Dear Paul,
How long have you been on this board/forum?
Your cab would easily weigh 60 kgs more than a coupe and with the widebody conversion possibly add another 20 kgs depending on who did it. I suspect that you really have no idea how much your cab weighs because you have not weighed it.
As for experience with chipping I am afraid I shall not even attempt to answer that one. It will be answered for me next week.
However it seems you tried a little too hard based on your next post to maybe beat a coupe. It seems you have toasted your clutch.
On this board you will be told the way it is. You might know thousands of 964 owners who have successfully paid their $500 and achieved 50 hp rip roaring successes. I don't and nor do any of the professionals in the business either.
However you spend your money and dream on as much as you like. All you get here is advice. Take it or leave it up to you.
I will give you some cost advice. For every 1HP you get to the rear wheels is going to cost you around $US208:00.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

PS: How long have you been involved with 964s?

PSS: If telling you the truth is negative then maybe you are on the wrong forum because that is all you are ever going to get from me.

Phil Raby

I've driven several chipped 964s and the difference is noticable, but not dramatic. Note that dyno figures concentrate on max bhp, but during everyday driving you're more likely to notice improvements in mid-range performance.

I've been using a chip from Wayne Schofield of ChipWizards, which has a map he produced for another C4 (he doesn't do off the shelf chips). This is excellent and makes the engine feel more lively. Wayne said to expect about a 15bhp improvement, and he's a genuine guy, well-respected in the tuning business.

At present I have a SuperChips off-the-shelf chip which, according to their dyno, gives a 9bhp improvement. I'm not wild about this, the power is very much at the top end and the car is less enjoyable to drive. Interestingly, the map for this chip looks similar (but not identical) on-screen to the Chipwizard one.

Dave, I'd be happy to let you try one of these in your car so you can decide for yourself.

Of course, if you want to see significant improvements in performance, you need to make more fundamental changes to your engine and then have the chip remapped to suit, which is Wayne Schofield's main business.

Hope this is of help.

Cheers

Doug H

Dove:

I hope to have some dyno results soon with different combinations. So far, I have tried three aftermarket chips and a stock DME setup. I have noticed differences. One seemed to have the best second gear pull between 3,500 to 6k, but my engine did grenade while this chip was installed. Not sure if chip related. The other two seemed to be more peaky at higher revs 5k or so. Definitely felt less pull when doing 0 - 60s in second with the stock set up and noticed some G-Tech drops. 3rd gear accelleration from 80 to 100 felt noticeably weaker with stock. Shop still tweaking and playing. Will post dynos as soon as we get them.

Nothing sad about spending money on chips and playing around with mods. Its all part of the allure and fun to me. Nothing wrong with liking a wide body cab and doing a little mods to equal out the losses for the curb appeal additions. I would rather keep my 18s, my cab top, my 150 +/- pounds in stereo gear and other creature comforts and figure out ways to boost power a little to compensate. More of a complete package to me.

Cay:

That sounds like a nice improvement for $ 2,500.00 US. My shop just did a top end rebuild which included quit a bit of small but somewhat costly tweaks and upgrades. Head work, new valves, and they replaced other parts here and there they considered to be potential weak links or problem areas if we try to take my motor up to 310 or 340 with the Lenz system. A forced induction system may have been the cheaper route to go, but I am looking to keep this car NA and it will be rewarding if I can attain my goals while keeping the car NA.

Adrian

Dear Doug,
Therer is nothing sad with spending money on modifications if you can afford it. From your list of Porsches you can certainly afford to do these things. I do not know Pauls financial situation and frnakly it is none of business. However there are not many people around like yourself so play devils advocate and tell the truth.
I would much rather people get angry with my answer (well not really I prefer them to ignore it if they do not like it but not come back with these "you are being negative posts") and make them think. Rather than give glowing reports which I know basically not to be accurate and then have them come back and accuse me of lying to them. Sometimes and this is one of those times that you are damned if you do and you are damned if you don't.
Can you imagine if say Paul had heard from me, ah yes Paul go get this chip it really works then he grenaded his engine like you did. He has already seemingly fried his clutch.
One serious problems with chips is the removal of the rpm limit. There is not list around of which ones do and which ones do not and you often find out the hard way.
However as somebody who ripped me off a long time ago said "to play this game you have to be able to afford to lose the money" I couldn't and I did.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

Doug H

Adrian:

I understand your point and give you props for your bluntness and willingness to share info. Just a different approach than some. Not bad, just different.

I would not do the mods to my daily driver. In fact, niether my TT, my Cayenne, nor my 996 will be modded. It has been tempting on the TT, but I worry about warranty issues and I am happy with the level of performance.

dove

Hi Adrian, I read your last post and wonder why you automatically think my original question regarding chips was directed to you for the answer.I was asking people who had experiance with various chips whats best, its not a case of "damned if you do and damned if you dont" give information because as far as I am concerned your advice is appreciated but with all due respect you dont have to put that much pressure on yourself because other people who have first hand knowledge here give good advice also.
I am willing to try various mods on my car,some will work some wont and I will lose money,but heh my cars my hobby and I will enjoy playing with it.
I'm sorry you lost money in the past, something I am trying to minamize with tried and tested advice.
Cheers
Paul
C2 cab
PS; clutch is fine wont be doing it again though,live and learn!

Adrian

Dear Paul,
My losing money has nothing to do with you losing money. If you want to spend it fine it is yours to spend. However on this forum if you ask a question you will get varying answers. If you do not like some or all of the answer then fine. You are feel to vett. If you wish to ignore what I say that is your choice. If you wish to challenge my credentials then we have a problem.
If you do not want to lose money then do not waste it on chips. Do something far more positive with your 964.
I always say that the Carrera RS with its all singing all dancing DME, special timing ring, blue printed engine got a whole 10 HP extra on the flywheel compared to a standard C2. Porsche made it the great 964 it was by shaving over 100 kgs out of it. That is the way to go and the proven way to go. 250 HP pushing 100 kgs less is much more cost effective than 8 HP more on the rear wheels.
You say tried and tested advice. Where is this tried and tested advice. If you get the chance speak to some of the real experts in this area. Alois Ruf is a good example. He will tell you, yes he sells chips, yes he sells DME because people want to buy them. However he will also tell you that if you want real improvements give him your 964 and he will do it. The rest is just playing around.
Ciao,
Adrian
964C4

Cay

another pro for chips:

if been totally pissed off to get blown from 993`s with my speedy. after tuning, this times been over and i`ve been hot to see any 993 to show him my exhaust...

and believe me I show it also to 996`s and I get a hard on in this moments.

to make long story short: rational answer is now cuz a 964 is one of the very best products ever leaving stuttgart. emotinal answer is do what YOU makes you happy! life is short.