cobalt

R&T glorifying the worlds most expensive kit car and yet they can't get the info correct. Claiming over 60,000 964's built is such a generalization and as we all have learned when narrowing it down to Coupes those numbers drop significantly. When you group speedsters, turbos, WB's, cabs, RSA's and the rest together we know that the numbers are closer to 47,000 but when just counting C2/C4's and the fact that engine and chassis much have matching numbers things change dramatically.

I hate to see these wonderful cars chopped up to build these. If I wanted quilted leather and fancy engine sound deadening I would buy a Bentley all of the overpriced fancy carp doesn't make these any better. The engine and suspension no doubt does but for the prices they are asking not sure what you are getting other than bragging rights to having more money than brains.

I just wish the authorities could get their facts straight and stop selling out to the big money players that pay their way.

http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-cult...ws&date=080517

Spyerx

Well the singers are really really nice. Too much for me.
Guilty of chopping a nice car :-)
But in the spirit of a minimalist driver car. No leather. Perlon only!

Catorce

Why do you think I started making repro engine cases? Because Singer was buying up every 3.6 case they could find, and I wasn't able to get a 3.6 case for my own builds. Check out my other thread here

https://rennlist.com/forums/911-foru...ine-cases.html

Ironically much later I was approached by them to ask about making cases for their cars as well, that is how short the supply is. It is an interesting market phenomenon that they created, and unless you have seen one in person, seen the quality, it is really not fair to call it a kit car. It's much more car than a plain 964 ever was.

Vandit

Why would Singer buy up all the 3.6l motors? I heard they only used complete, numbers matching, 964s as starting points. Wouldn't replacing the case make a car no longer "numbers matching?"

Also, is grenading a 3.6l really that common of an event that now there's a shortage of cases? I don't remember the last time I saw a thread about destroying a case on the rennlist 964 subforum.

Catorce

I can't disclose a whole bunch due to the NDA in place between me and them, but the article mentions they have a 110 car back order which is true. Also, many cars reach them with either no motor or blow / defective motors.

You are tunnel visioning the 964 aspect of this. Every crashed / burned 964 is a feeding frenzy for 914 guys who want 3.6 cases as well as other air cooled guys looking to upgrade.

It's not that 964 guys are grenading them. That's the POINT, they are not, they are lasting a long time, and hot rodders cannot find the cases to make their own 3.6 and 3.8 builds. Throw Singer into the mix and now you have a legit shortage.

3.6 is the engine of choice for hot rod builds across the board, from G series to later long hoods and of course 914s.

If you don't believe me, go find me a 3.6 case for sale in the USA. Found one? Ok, find me 3 more. Bet you can't.....

cobalt

I am so happy to see you doing this. I spent 30 years making aluminum and magnesium sand castings for the DOD and many other applications. Family business that was doing quite well until my father(partner) passed. As 49% owner my family convinced my mother now my new partner to close the business and sell off the property which was worth a lot. Legal battle still going on some 6 years later.

Truly sad three generations (grandfather started Bendix Eclipse Pioneer program in the 30's pioneered DOW metal) worth of business shut down for to me pennies in Realestate but I digress.

I was about to embark on making magnesium replacement parts for 935/962 and other applications. NLA 962 castings which took less work to make than the case are fetching $45,000 for used reconditioned parts. One thing I wanted to do was make cases for the older mag case engines as well but I never considered the 3.6 case which is one of the most commonly used cases. It essentially was used from the 964 all the way through to the 997.2 GT3's and 997 turbos. Internal changes were made but basically the same.

I regret selling off my 3.6 engine when i did my track build but hindsight is 20/20.

Happy to see you following through. Although if anyone believes there are enough 964's to build endless amounts of singers and other backdate creations they are sadly mistaken. There are so few of these cars left I think we will one day soon find that the only thing left are S title cars needing complete rebuild of the tubs.

Interesting to see you are HIPing the cases. I made cases for racing applications for years and never needed to. Most all of my parts required penetrant and radiographic inspection to Class 1A Grade A. So defects weren't allowed much and I never had a part fail but these should be very robust. I actually did a number of engines for Joe Nastasi of Nastasi racing and we used C355.0T6 for the barrels and components. Although I usually cast A356.0T6 we found the C355 held up better after coolant loss of some of his engines while racing. He was able to run the engines without cooling and still showed no signs of damage from the abuse.

The parts in yellow (magnesium) were all made using the original castings from a long time ago. He always had interesting projects to tackle.
http://www.nyaroc.com/past-events2/2...asi-collection

Good luck on your venture.

Catorce

Cobalt,

Responded to you in the other thread, but thanks again for your insight. I'll be leaning on you!

The jury is still out on HIP...it was suggested mainly as a sales tool and belt and suspenders approach because we both know the case will be plenty strong without HIP, but we shall see!

Also making the 2.0, 2.7 and GT3/ Turbo cases as well after the 3.6.

Thanks again and BEAUTIFUL work!

creaturecat

Jeez. yet another reason to be paranoid about driving the 964.
how much does Singer pay for a more-than-decent 964 these days?

apanossi

Nothing. You bring your own.

Railmaster.

Well Porsche claims a little more than 62.000 964s were built but whos counting! 😁

cobalt

Was it Porsche or Adrian? Porsche has been tight lipped about these cars and I have never seen an official number released. Adrian's and other "experts" numbers were all wrong he was counting vin numbers 001 on up for the US market when in actuality all vin numbers begin with 061 for each model each year. There are a number of threads on this.

Irrespective of the actual numbers. You can't count turbo's, Speedsters, widebodies (jubilee) , RSA's, RS's 3.8RS's, Turbo S's both 92 and 94, Cup cars both US and ROW and a number of specialty cars. Then you have the cabs which comprise of nearly 14,706 units. Most of the specialty cars except the RSA's and RS's vin numbers are included in the numbers I am posting so these numbers are actually smaller when subtracting those but for this purpose I am not. Subtract these from the equation and the numbers are not so large as some would have you believe. I don't think we are at the point where RS's, RSA's or other significant cars in their own right will be chopped up for these creations.

For the US market if you single out the cars that qualify to become singers there were a total of 5,137 coupes both C2 & C4's tip and manual imported to US spec for the US and Canada. There was a time when dozens of these were being parted out monthly by people over on pelican and the numbers were staggering in total.

I know of a number of targas that have been sold to potential singer customers there were only 1997 imported both C2/C4 tip and manual imported to US spec for the US and Canada.

If you include all of the ROW cars which are scattered around the world there are a total of 27,600 Coupes both C2/C4 tip and manual and 4,531 targas both tip and manual that are potential candidates. I would venture to guess that half of these are NLA, crashed and poorly repaired or just plain parted out over the years.

If you add up just the C2/C4's coupes, targas and cabs we are still only at 42,306 and that number as I said is high. The rest of the cars manufactured are all special in their own right and highly collectable.

If you add up all the speedsters and others with specific vin numbers we are looking at less than 10k cars so where are all of these other cars everyone claims exist? If you really crunch the numbers you will find that more than 62,000 is internet hype and the numbers of actual cars that can be used to build these cars is far less than what everyone is trying to say so that these cars can continue to be chopped up and parted out to make something else.

I am guilty myself of cutting up a 90 C4 and turning it into a dedicated track car.

It would be great to have data base of how many stock 964 coupes remain without irreversible changes. I have no doubt the number is scary low. I have been helping people look for these cars for years and finding anything worth buying is becoming harder all the time.

Bloose993TT

There's an amazing stock 92-94 Coupe at Beverly Hills Porsche service department. Only 17k miles. Looks cherry.

911Jetta

Awesome!

(Quote from your engine thread)