Adjustable front sway bar drop link for M030 bar?
07-01-2017, 08:12 PM
#1
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Adjustable front sway bar drop link for M030 bar?
I had a corner balance/alignment performed on my track-focused 968 (I basically have every suspension component Racers Edge sells, along with a host of other mods and upgrades) today, and the guy who did it, the owner of the track I go to who's set up hundreds of cars, immediately noticed that my car doesn't have adjustable front sway bar drop links. He informed me that this would make corner balancing very difficult, because as soon as we connect the front bar, it would introduce preload, which would alter the corner balance that we just got through setting with the sway bars disconnected. The rear isn't a problem - he had adjustable drop links in his shop that fit my car, which he installed and was able to remove the preload, but the design of the front drop link is such that there's not way to simply replace it with a conventional adjustable link. I've searched Racers Edge's Lindsey Racing's, Elephant Racing's, and Paragon's sites, and can't find anything. I suppose I could remove the existing links, and have a machine shop extend the thread farther down the shaft, which would allow me to insert a nut on the bottom side of the bushing that fits into the control arm, but I was hoping there is a more elegant solution. Any ideas and/or experience? Thanks.
07-01-2017, 11:18 PM
#2
Nordschleife Master
Idk of anyone who makes front adjustable drop links for the factory sway bars, most track cars I've seen have either the Welmeister or Tarett front sways which incorporate adjustable drop links. Plenty of solutions for aftermarket adjustable links for the rear factory sway bars, it's a simpler design than the front.
07-01-2017, 11:27 PM
#3
Race Car
I had a corner balance/alignment performed on my track-focused 968 (I basically have every suspension component Racers Edge sells, along with a host of other mods and upgrades) today, and the guy who did it, the owner of the track I go to who's set up hundreds of cars, immediately noticed that my car doesn't have adjustable front sway bar drop links. He informed me that this would make corner balancing very difficult, because as soon as we connect the front bar, it would introduce preload, which would alter the corner balance that we just got through setting with the sway bars disconnected. The rear isn't a problem - he had adjustable drop links in his shop that fit my car, which he installed and was able to remove the preload, but the design of the front drop link is such that there's not way to simply replace it with a conventional adjustable link. I've searched Racers Edge's Lindsey Racing's, Elephant Racing's, and Paragon's sites, and can't find anything. I suppose I could remove the existing links, and have a machine shop extend the thread farther down the shaft, which would allow me to insert a nut on the bottom side of the bushing that fits into the control arm, but I was hoping there is a more elegant solution. Any ideas and/or experience? Thanks.
If you are tuned into a change as small as miniscule additional preload of an MO30 bar after a corner balance, you need to be in F1 as a paid driver....!
If you're that worried about it and your "alignment guy" hadn't thought about countering with rear preload, get the Tarret.
Then you can spend all weekend laying on your back with wrenches.
T
07-01-2017, 11:49 PM
#4
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks for the responses. It's a DE car. I know a moderate amount about suspension theory, but it definitely isn't an area of major expertise of mine (although I'm trying to learn as much as I can), so all I can do is rely on what experienced people who I trust tell me. The problem is that any discussion about suspension set-up always generates strong opinions on both sides of any topic. My alignment guy was quite adamant that sway bar preload is a big deal, enough so that he wouldn't put my rear bar back without rigging up a pair of adjustable drop links, and relieving its preload. 951and944S says it's trivial, or something that can easily be compensated for. Maybe the lack of aftermarket parts supports your opinion. And no, I don't feel like shelling out $700 for a Tarett bar over this.
07-02-2017, 12:05 AM
#5
Burning Brakes
How much adjustment do you need? If it's only one or two mm, you can easily add a washer under the front swaybar bushing to add length. A normal car with a straight chassis shouldn't need more than a couple mm of adjustment.
07-02-2017, 12:12 AM
#6
Race Car
Thanks for the responses. It's a DE car. I know a moderate amount about suspension theory, but it definitely isn't an area of major expertise of mine (although I'm trying to learn as much as I can), so all I can do is rely on what experienced people who I trust tell me. The problem is that any discussion about suspension set-up always generates strong opinions on both sides of any topic. My alignment guy was quite adamant that sway bar preload is a big deal, enough so that he wouldn't put my rear bar back without rigging up a pair of adjustable drop links, and relieving its preload. 951and944S says it's trivial, or something that can easily be compensated for. Maybe the lack of aftermarket parts supports your opinion. And no, I don't feel like shelling out $700 for a Tarett bar over this.
Trivial.....yup.
My son won a PCA race a couple months ago in his 944 with little to no oil left in a leaking RF shock with the national points leader on track...
Sometimes, you just gotta drive....
T.
07-02-2017, 12:31 AM
#7
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
951and944S,
I had pretty much the same question for my alignment guy, and his response, if I understood it correctly, was that this would be true if there was an equal amount of weight on both front wheels, but that that is never the case. He's a bit of a perfectionist, as you can see. Better that, I suppose, than someone who does sloppy work. But I see your point that this isn't enough to worry about, and I don't have any choice, anyway, since adjustable front sway bar drop links don't exist! Thanks again for the inputs.
I had pretty much the same question for my alignment guy, and his response, if I understood it correctly, was that this would be true if there was an equal amount of weight on both front wheels, but that that is never the case. He's a bit of a perfectionist, as you can see. Better that, I suppose, than someone who does sloppy work. But I see your point that this isn't enough to worry about, and I don't have any choice, anyway, since adjustable front sway bar drop links don't exist! Thanks again for the inputs.
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07-02-2017, 01:54 AM
#8
Keep an eye out for used tarrets, I snagged a set cheap and they are great. Another part of the 944 that may have been intentionally hampered by the engineers so that it was cheap to produce OR wouldn't be better than a 911...
07-02-2017, 11:27 AM
#9
Race Car
951and944S,
I had pretty much the same question for my alignment guy, and his response, if I understood it correctly, was that this would be true if there was an equal amount of weight on both front wheels, but that that is never the case. He's a bit of a perfectionist, as you can see. Better that, I suppose, than someone who does sloppy work. But I see your point that this isn't enough to worry about, and I don't have any choice, anyway, since adjustable front sway bar drop links don't exist! Thanks again for the inputs.
I had pretty much the same question for my alignment guy, and his response, if I understood it correctly, was that this would be true if there was an equal amount of weight on both front wheels, but that that is never the case. He's a bit of a perfectionist, as you can see. Better that, I suppose, than someone who does sloppy work. But I see your point that this isn't enough to worry about, and I don't have any choice, anyway, since adjustable front sway bar drop links don't exist! Thanks again for the inputs.
You set your preference for dive, roll, weight with spring rates and shocks.
Used to run Koni 3012, not any more but this is a good read in understanding that shocks aren't just to smooth out bumps and how to properly set up any shock with bump/rebound - http://www.koniracing.com/rrtuningguide.cfm
These days, at a relatively low price, you can get new/used remote cannister shocks F/R and fine tune F/r balance, high/low speed corner roll, etc., which in principle adds (or lessens) to the spring rate.
So, take your corner balance for example......, lets say attaching your front bar is estimated to add 20lbs carry weight to your right front reading......you could jack 20lbs to the left front by following the formula for 10psi N = X lbs/sq/in to that cannister.
We purposely err on soft side with springs because of this.
I can firm ride for smooth tracks, soften ride for bumpy tracks.
If you are sitting on 800#F and 1000#R springs, it's impossible to go soft but with 450F and 675R, I can go firmer with additional pressure in the cannisters and fine tune F/R as if I physically removed the springs at the track and added 50# rate to my rears (or fronts if oversteering). A sway bar adjustment is one of the last things on my mind.
Roll was already figured into my spring rates and shock compression settings.
Ultimately, although I haven't had time to figure it all out (maybe on current car I'm building), stacked springs is the way to go.
Eventually, the only tweak you can make, and I am talking about a top notch driver in a front running car, is to get the inner F/R tires to stay on the ground.
As a function of the sway bar, outer wheel compression will raise the inner wheels off the ground, reducing corner grip briefly to just the cross section of two tires (here come the backmarkers screaming SWAY BAR). A stacked spring setup, whether progressive, digressive or otherwise configured, has the potential to keep those inside tires with some contact grip.
If this could be accomplished (and in theory, I think it can), against otherwise equal competition......., it's lights out.
T
07-02-2017, 11:30 AM
#10
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
If I understand what you're suggesting correctly, the following may be a way to achieve a "poor man's" adjustable front drop link:
1. With the sway bar still disconnected, put the car back on the scales and read the corner weights
2. Reconnect the front bar, and tighten down the nut (use a regular nut)
3. Read the new corner weights
4. Loosen the nuts, and back the links out of the bushings until the corner weights match what they were before the bar was connected.
5. Note the spacings between the top washers and the nuts, and insert however many additional washers are needed to match these spacings, and tighten down the lock nuts.
Is this about right?
NCLA951,
Good idea to keep an eye out for used Tarrets.
07-02-2017, 12:19 PM
#11
Rennlist Member
With the MO F/R bars, these cars are one of the best handling ever.
You set your preference for dive, roll, weight with spring rates and shocks.
Used to run Koni 3012, not any more but this is a good read in understanding that shocks aren't just to smooth out bumps and how to properly set up any shock with bump/rebound - http://www.koniracing.com/rrtuningguide.cfm
These days, at a relatively low price, you can get new/used remote cannister shocks F/R and fine tune F/r balance, high/low speed corner roll, etc., which in principle adds (or lessens) to the spring rate.
So, take your corner balance for example......, lets say attaching your front bar is estimated to add 20lbs carry weight to your right front reading......you could jack 20lbs to the left front by following the formula for 10psi N = X lbs/sq/in to that cannister.
We purposely err on soft side with springs because of this.
I can firm ride for smooth tracks, soften ride for bumpy tracks.
If you are sitting on 800#F and 1000#R springs, it's impossible to go soft but with 450F and 675R, I can go firmer with additional pressure in the cannisters and fine tune F/R as if I physically removed the springs at the track and added 50# rate to my rears (or fronts if oversteering). A sway bar adjustment is one of the last things on my mind.
Roll was already figured into my spring rates and shock compression settings.
Ultimately, although I haven't had time to figure it all out (maybe on current car I'm building), stacked springs is the way to go.
Eventually, the only tweak you can make, and I am talking about a top notch driver in a front running car, is to get the inner F/R tires to stay on the ground.
As a function of the sway bar, outer wheel compression will raise the inner wheels off the ground, reducing corner grip briefly to just the cross section of two tires (here come the backmarkers screaming SWAY BAR). A stacked spring setup, whether progressive, digressive or otherwise configured, has the potential to keep those inside tires with some contact grip.
If this could be accomplished (and in theory, I think it can), against otherwise equal competition......., it's lights out.
T
You set your preference for dive, roll, weight with spring rates and shocks.
Used to run Koni 3012, not any more but this is a good read in understanding that shocks aren't just to smooth out bumps and how to properly set up any shock with bump/rebound - http://www.koniracing.com/rrtuningguide.cfm
These days, at a relatively low price, you can get new/used remote cannister shocks F/R and fine tune F/r balance, high/low speed corner roll, etc., which in principle adds (or lessens) to the spring rate.
So, take your corner balance for example......, lets say attaching your front bar is estimated to add 20lbs carry weight to your right front reading......you could jack 20lbs to the left front by following the formula for 10psi N = X lbs/sq/in to that cannister.
We purposely err on soft side with springs because of this.
I can firm ride for smooth tracks, soften ride for bumpy tracks.
If you are sitting on 800#F and 1000#R springs, it's impossible to go soft but with 450F and 675R, I can go firmer with additional pressure in the cannisters and fine tune F/R as if I physically removed the springs at the track and added 50# rate to my rears (or fronts if oversteering). A sway bar adjustment is one of the last things on my mind.
Roll was already figured into my spring rates and shock compression settings.
Ultimately, although I haven't had time to figure it all out (maybe on current car I'm building), stacked springs is the way to go.
Eventually, the only tweak you can make, and I am talking about a top notch driver in a front running car, is to get the inner F/R tires to stay on the ground.
As a function of the sway bar, outer wheel compression will raise the inner wheels off the ground, reducing corner grip briefly to just the cross section of two tires (here come the backmarkers screaming SWAY BAR). A stacked spring setup, whether progressive, digressive or otherwise configured, has the potential to keep those inside tires with some contact grip.
If this could be accomplished (and in theory, I think it can), against otherwise equal competition......., it's lights out.
T
Curious, which coilover did you move on to after the 3012's?
07-02-2017, 12:49 PM
#12
Race Car
2) they are available for way cheap because of reason #1.
Ledas have leaking problems and the support for them in the U.S. is waning.
People tend to gravitate to the "latest/greatest" by nature - "If Joe XX is fast and he has XX shocks, that's what I'm getting".
At one time LEDA was the latest/greatest for 944.
Thing is, one year it's Moton, then they are gone and it's MCS next year and on and on. The entry ClubSport versions of these are $4000+, and likewise, Intrax, Penske, etc., it's just up from there. I good used set of 2X adjustable remote cannister LEDAs, fresh from a reseal can be had for $1200-$1500 and parts to refresh are still available via Europe.
GAZ in Europe is very similar to LEDA and it's rumoured that one of the LEDA guys moved to develop those, although I haven't verified 100%.
The 3012's are good shocks but just the rears will set you back $12-1500.
Problem I had with those, on a light car, it's hard to get the rebound compromised to where the shock doesn't cause a condition known as "jacking" (especially the rear) on a light car.
Creative use of this jacking effect could be used to control an outside pair of lifted wheels but the control mechanism would have to be active for it to work in a way other than momentary.
We moved these to a 3000lb 968 of a friend.
T
07-02-2017, 01:03 PM
#13
Race Car
Dave,
If I understand what you're suggesting correctly, the following may be a way to achieve a "poor man's" adjustable front drop link:
1. With the sway bar still disconnected, put the car back on the scales and read the corner weights
2. Reconnect the front bar, and tighten down the nut (use a regular nut)
3. Read the new corner weights
4. Loosen the nuts, and back the links out of the bushings until the corner weights match what they were before the bar was connected.
5. Note the spacings between the top washers and the nuts, and insert however many additional washers are needed to match these spacings, and tighten down the lock nuts.
Is this about right?
NCLA951,
Good idea to keep an eye out for used Tarrets.
If I understand what you're suggesting correctly, the following may be a way to achieve a "poor man's" adjustable front drop link:
1. With the sway bar still disconnected, put the car back on the scales and read the corner weights
2. Reconnect the front bar, and tighten down the nut (use a regular nut)
3. Read the new corner weights
4. Loosen the nuts, and back the links out of the bushings until the corner weights match what they were before the bar was connected.
5. Note the spacings between the top washers and the nuts, and insert however many additional washers are needed to match these spacings, and tighten down the lock nuts.
Is this about right?
NCLA951,
Good idea to keep an eye out for used Tarrets.
I find there are way too few racing threads here in general, given the amount of people that track these cars.
Look down the thread menu and there are 80% about strokers, bigger turbo, etc., etc.
You'll get more bang for the buck studying suspension and investing in that and understanding what changes what and how to personalize your own fine tune.
Suspension doesn't cause reliability problems either.
Two cars, one with a +30hp turbocharger and the other focused on suspension and a driver/wrench knowledgeable about setup will waste the car with more power.
I see it everywhere we go.....
By the way...., don't fear preload. It's a good thing.
If you have your bars set at neutral (some may prefer) you have a millisecond at turn in for your bars to "load" before they even have an effect.
If they already have a preload, the car is initially more responsive.
T
Last edited by 951and944S; 07-02-2017 at 01:19 PM.
07-02-2017, 02:18 PM
#14
Burning Brakes
Thread Starter
Thanks - I agree that there is more bang for the buck in getting the suspension right, and it's a topic that fascinates me. Although, given the huge number of variables (not the least of which is the skill, experience level, and style of the driver!), there is almost as much art to it as science, and at least as many opinions as there are variables!
07-02-2017, 05:04 PM
#15
Nordschleife Master
