guards951

Well, while testing out the new Fabspeed exhaust on my otherwise stock 67,000 mile '86, the clutch started to slip when the boost came on strong.

I'm planning to run an M-Tune @ ~15 psi, and maybe upgrade to a Vitesse Stage 1 turbo on down the road (maybe around 320 whp, at most), so I'm planning on a KEP Stage 1 PP and Cup clutch with a resurfaced flywheel.

Aside from the obvious things (PP, disc, bearings, rear main seal), are there any other things that you all would recommend replacing/upgrading? I've never done a clutch job on one of these (not looking forward to it!), so I'm not sure what all will be removed that could use replacing/upgrading.

I figured if the crossover really has to come off, I'll probably take it across town to LR to get it converted to a 2-piece and coated. I'm also planning on new 30mm T-bars (as well as the rest of the suspension) at the same time, since the rear will already be torn apart. I'm assuming this would be the best time to do that?
Any other recommendations? This car is my baby, so I'm trying to spare no expense. No plans on tracking it, but I want a good, fun street performer, and at MOST, I'll drive it ~1,500 miles per year.

Thanks in advance!

944Phil

Pilot bearing, and rear main seal. These are cheap.

clutch fork bearings and throw out bearing are also a while you're in there item, but I don't think they need to be done at every clutch job.

Also fuel filter is easy to change with the transmission out.

Tom M'Guinn

CV joints, fuel filter, transaxle mount, shifter cup/bushing, torque tube bearings and shift-tunnel foam (if you remove the tt), notch the bell housing for the speed/ref sensors, bell housing grounds, transaxle fluid, and the usual clutch stuff. That clutch will hold up great for that power and more...

mtnman82

Didn't think about the fuel filter - good call Phil!

I would definitely recommend finding someone who can replace the needle bearings with brass bushings. You'll never have to worry about them again. Also have the fork hardened, again if you can find someone. Marcus Blazack did mine and it turned out excellent. I also bought a lightened/resurfaced 9.5 lb flywheel from him, which is not for everyone but I like.

Tom called out some good ones too, like notching the bell housing and you might look up the urethane transmission mount procedure for another option if your going to do something about the transmission mount. Also, only944.com has a couple shifter goodies I would have installed if they were around when I did my clutch.

You're close to dropping the torque tube, but dropping the rear suspension scared me off at that point, and I was anxious to get everything back together and drive again. You may still be OK at 67K miles. The tt is still on my to do list...

944Phil

I notched my bellhousing and had terrible starter kick for 2 years. I couldn't figure it out and finally this winter I bought a virgin bellhousing and all is good now. For the amount of time it takes to remove the speed and reference sensors, which is like 10 minutes, I wouldn't notch the bell housing.

pole position

KEP is complete overkill for your goals , Cup clutch will hold with no problems into the mid to high 3xx whp without any potential clutch fork problems.

944hal

If you are thinking of doing the torque tube, do it now while the trans is out. Dropping the torsion bar tube isn't that hard if you have a lift, although I've done it with the car on jack stands using a hydraulic jack. Great time to replace the torsion bars, or convert to coil overs. Also, if you remove the rear A-arms you can replace the stock bushings. Same with the torsion tube bushings but a word of warning, delrin may squeak too much. You have to pull the torque tube back anyway to remove it from the engine bell housing. I just replace my torque tube last week. PIA, so its worthy of a "while you are in there" just do it. If you need a the torque tube rebuilt, contact Dimi.

mtnman82

Phil - can you elaborate on the starter kick please? What led you to believe it was the notch in the housing?

I've had something like a 'kick' (seems like the starter will bind momentarily?) occasionally since I did my clutch job and have been trying to figure out what it was or where it was coming from.

944Phil

This is a bit off topic, but it'll hopefully benefit others doing their clutch and considering notching the bell housing "while they're in there".

When i redid my clutch, the first time, i notched the bell housing to make life easier if i needed to do it again. All was good under the hood until the starter died. A new starter is about 3 times the price of a rebuilt, and i've always used rebuilt starters on my other cars. So i got a rebuilt starter. Right after the starter install i started getting a bit of kickback, meaning the engine would fire at the wrong time and "kickback"wards trying to turn the wrong way. I never really put two and two together and blamed the starter, but decided to live with it because it wasn't too bad.

It got worse. Don't ask me why, but it did. I redid all my grounds, rebuilt my harness, knock sensor, new speed and reference sensors, etc, etc, etc... It got to the point where i was embarrassed to be seen trying to start my car, and even avoided driving it to work. It would always start, albeit sometimes it would take a while and grind a lot while trying to do so.

I didn't know how to search for my problem, but finally ran across the keyword "kickback" and found some stuff about notched bell housings and an updated sensor bracket. Woo hoo! i bought the updated bracket and it helped a bit. Finally over the last winter i pulled the engine to clean it up and put in a new turbo and put in a fidanza flywheel. When i came time to start the car she fired right up and hasn't had kickback since. Maybe it's the new flywheel, but i doubt it.

For the time it takes to remove the speed and reference sensors, i wouldn't risk having to replace a bell housing. That's my opinion/story. Anyway, it is a good practice to remove the speed and reference sensors, that way they won't get damaged when your trying to squeeze everything back in.

As for the clutch, i also have a KEP stage 1, and am sub 300hp. I put it in because i want to build up the car and didn't want to have to redo the clutch when i was ready. Long story short i could've waited because i've been in there 3 times since then. I'm also running a cup clutch, works great, price it right, no complaints.

Good luck, let me know if i babbled too long, and wasn't clear.

Phil

mtnman82

Hmmm, I'll have to pay more close attention when mine does it again. I'm not sure I'm experiencing the same thing you were. Mine seems more like something is binding when the starter is used - seems to turn freely otherwise.

Yes - sorry for the OT guards951, but hopefully good for posterity.

guards951

No worries guys, it's great info! I'm generally against any avoidable cutting/notching, anyways. Haha
And thanks for all of the feedback! I'll probably be dropping a nice chunk of change with Paragon and Elephant Racing, for some suspension components.

My torque tube is silent, but it would suck terribly if it started making noise 1,000 miles after the clutch job! I sent a message to Constantine to see about buying one of his beautiful rebuilt units outright or with a core charge, as this would DEFINITELY be the time to do that, but I hate having excessive downtime.

Fuel filter, trans mount, maybe a beefed up clutch fork and an only944 shifter setup... Man, this list is getting to be lengthy! Haha

And I'd rather the clutch setup be slightly overkill just in case, since I don't see myself EVER putting enough miles on this car to need another clutch in my lifetime.

Tom M'Guinn

I've seen cars with notched bell housings with zero kick back, and other cars with factory bell housings that kick back a lot. Mine is notched and I don't get any more kickback now than before it was notched. Sounds like you changed a lot (pulled motor, etc.) so hard to say with any confidence that your results were related to the notched bell housing, no? My latest theory is that at least some kickback issues are caused by the alternator/starter cable being routed too closely to the speed and ref wires -- often because the speed/ref wires aren't secured in the bracket at the back of the intake, and because the battery/alt cable is either old and more likely to emit noise, or because it is new and routed too closely to the speed/ref sensors. Just a theory, but seems to play out in practice. I know its a moot point for the OP, but wanted to offer a different view/experience for those considering notching.

944Phil

I can't say with 100% certainty that is was the bellhousing, but I tried moving the sensors wires away from the power cables and it didn't make a difference. I also think that a quality rebuilt starter won't do it. I did all my own wiring, and every wire is new, and even that didn't make a difference.

I don't think it's worth the risk for the little time it saves.

Techno Duck

I have experienced starter kickback after a clutch job on my car. However the cause was that i used an early style speed and reference sensor bracket. I broke my original bracket removing it and had an early style on hand which i used. As soon as i replaced that bracket with the later style that has a EMF shield / sleeve on one of the sensors (forgot which one) the problem went away. FYI, i notched my bell housing also.

944Phil, which starter are you using? Ive read the EMF shield was added on the later cars when they started using the smaller body starter as it creates a stronger EMF. The early cars used a larger starter body.

As far as the while your in there stuff, everyone has it covered. Personally i would not bother doing the rear suspension at the same time as you wont need to touch any of it for the clutch job. The transmission will be out, but its not too difficult to remove again so not worth while in my opinion. If your feeling especially brave and can stomach the while your in there's... take out the torque tube when you drop the torsion tube assembly as there is no better time to get the torque tube out.

Tom M'Guinn

I agree re the rebuilt starter. I bet many guys have wasted good money on rebuilt starters to no avail. If anything, a good battery charge helps more. I hope someday the 951 faithful will find a definitive explanation/solution for the kickback issue, but until then it remains a hard one in part because everyone's experiences are different. You apparently had much more kickback with a notched bell housing. I didn't. A friend here in town has fairly frequent kickback despite an un-notched BH, rebuilt starter, re-gapping and re-routing, shielded mount, etc.

I tend to take my car apart a lot, so I notched the bell housing to save the effort of setting the gap, but agree in the context of changing your clutch it's not going to meaningfully change how long the job takes. For that matter, if you don't ever expect to change your clutch again, it probably takes longer to notch the BH than it would to just re-gap the sensors.

Now back to your regular programming...