Raceware Retorque Procedure
08-22-2003, 08:49 PM
#1
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Raceware Retorque Procedure
After heat cycling raceware studs on a 944 turbo, you are supposed to "re-torque" them. Does that mean:
(a) put a torque wrench on the nuts and make sure they are no loser than spec
(b) loosen each nut a little and re-tighten to spec
(c) loosen them all in sequence and then torque in sequence to spec
(d) whatever, stop being so ****
(a) put a torque wrench on the nuts and make sure they are no loser than spec
(b) loosen each nut a little and re-tighten to spec
(c) loosen them all in sequence and then torque in sequence to spec
(d) whatever, stop being so ****
08-22-2003, 10:44 PM
#3
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
yeah but...
I took the intake off and hit the exposed nuts with the torque wrench. None of them budged at all. What are the chances that the nuts under the cam cover are loose?
I wonder if the nuts are still clamping as much, or if they just have more rotational friction now compared to during assembly when everything was brand new and freshly oiled?
I wonder if the nuts are still clamping as much, or if they just have more rotational friction now compared to during assembly when everything was brand new and freshly oiled?
08-22-2003, 11:44 PM
#4
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Raceware studs are not "stretch to yeild" studs (commonly known as stretch bolts).
They do not need to be retorqued.
I've pulled my head 3x over the years and before undoing the head nuts, I checked the torque "just for the heck of it", and each time they were to spec.
Some people have told me that they need to be retorqued, and Huntley Racing comes to mind, but like I said... everytime I've checked them they have been to spec.
They do not need to be retorqued.
I've pulled my head 3x over the years and before undoing the head nuts, I checked the torque "just for the heck of it", and each time they were to spec.
Some people have told me that they need to be retorqued, and Huntley Racing comes to mind, but like I said... everytime I've checked them they have been to spec.
08-23-2003, 01:49 AM
#5
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
The raceware instructions says it is important to re-torque after heat cycling. I feel like a chump pulling the cam tower when all the exposed nuts are tight. Decisions...decisions...
08-23-2003, 03:35 AM
#6
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Tom M'Guinn
It certainly can't hurt to recheck/retorque with the exception that evertime you have to pull the cam tower and reinstall the cam tower you risk pulling the threads on the head that secure the cam tower (ask me how I know)....
I ended up having every threaded hole on my John Milledge head helicoiled to prevent what eventually happens with parts that are removed and reinstalled a few times... (and it wasn't cheap since there are a lot of threaded holes on the head!).
Good luck,
It certainly can't hurt to recheck/retorque with the exception that evertime you have to pull the cam tower and reinstall the cam tower you risk pulling the threads on the head that secure the cam tower (ask me how I know)....
I ended up having every threaded hole on my John Milledge head helicoiled to prevent what eventually happens with parts that are removed and reinstalled a few times... (and it wasn't cheap since there are a lot of threaded holes on the head!).
Good luck,
08-23-2003, 03:38 AM
#7
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Also... get the full metal 3 piece head gasket. It's the best thing since sliced bread on these cars.... It's decades ahead of the stock (and nearly stock.. "widefire" headgasket... which in my opinion is a piece of absolute junk).
This new headgasket, which is only new to us (the Porsche crowd), has been successfully used for years now on all the import cars.
This new headgasket, which is only new to us (the Porsche crowd), has been successfully used for years now on all the import cars.
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08-23-2003, 08:14 AM
#8
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hey tony we just instaled the Huntley full mettal oringed gaskd and guess what it do not seal!!!!
should it have an oring arond the cylinder wall?
thsi one didn't but it sold to us as a o-ringed one.
aynway this think is NOT selaing and at anything over 0,5 bar it pushes the water out of the water tank becaus eof teh exhaust gases in the water system
My last stock gasket (not the wider fire one) laste 240000 km with absolut no problem until I went to 1,7 bar duw to a stacked wastegate.
I do not know what is junk but the stock gaket lasted 12 years the mettal one not even 12 hours. oh yes teh engine was sleeved but could it be becaus eof the sleeving?? and why??
Konstantin
should it have an oring arond the cylinder wall?
thsi one didn't but it sold to us as a o-ringed one.
aynway this think is NOT selaing and at anything over 0,5 bar it pushes the water out of the water tank becaus eof teh exhaust gases in the water system
My last stock gasket (not the wider fire one) laste 240000 km with absolut no problem until I went to 1,7 bar duw to a stacked wastegate.
I do not know what is junk but the stock gaket lasted 12 years the mettal one not even 12 hours. oh yes teh engine was sleeved but could it be becaus eof the sleeving?? and why??
Konstantin
08-23-2003, 01:22 PM
#9
Nordschleife Master
Originally posted by TonyG
Also... get the full metal 3 piece head gasket. It's the best thing since sliced bread on these cars.... It's decades ahead of the stock (and nearly stock.. "widefire" headgasket... which in my opinion is a piece of absolute junk).
This new headgasket, which is only new to us (the Porsche crowd), has been successfully used for years now on all the import cars.
Also... get the full metal 3 piece head gasket. It's the best thing since sliced bread on these cars.... It's decades ahead of the stock (and nearly stock.. "widefire" headgasket... which in my opinion is a piece of absolute junk).
This new headgasket, which is only new to us (the Porsche crowd), has been successfully used for years now on all the import cars.
08-23-2003, 02:48 PM
#10
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Thread Starter
Konstantin,
Don't you think your problem relates to the sleeves and not the head gasket, since your syptoms are so similar to the other person who used the same parts from the same supplier?
Don't you think your problem relates to the sleeves and not the head gasket, since your syptoms are so similar to the other person who used the same parts from the same supplier?
08-23-2003, 03:51 PM
#11
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Yes but it is not the same person who build the engine.
Also the engine was ok with the first gasket (OEM)
I wnat to hear from someone who use dthe mettal gaskets and use them for long time and they seal.
Till now I know the copper gasket make !always" problems and never heard anything for the new 3 piece metal gasket.
Konstantin
Also the engine was ok with the first gasket (OEM)
I wnat to hear from someone who use dthe mettal gaskets and use them for long time and they seal.
Till now I know the copper gasket make !always" problems and never heard anything for the new 3 piece metal gasket.
Konstantin
08-23-2003, 06:41 PM
#12
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Konstantin
You have to be carefull when you install it.
The 3 pieces (really 4 pieces) are held together with 3 rivits. It's easy to move the gasket sandwich around so that the inner 2 pieces do not fit inside of each other properly.
This usually happens of you play with the gasket pulling apart the layers to check it out.
You have to make sure that when you lay the gasket on the block, that you push down with your hand and make sure that all the layers are interlocking properly.
These gaskets, the full metal gaskets, are not a new design. In fact, I've come to find that it's been around for a long time, as the Honda & supra crowd have been using the exact same gasket for years now... with no problems.
So anyway, I bet that you didn't get the layers to lock down properly.
I've been running these now for a while, and I'll never use anything else.
Also as a note, these are all that Huntley Racing and John Milledge will use now FWIW.
You have to be carefull when you install it.
The 3 pieces (really 4 pieces) are held together with 3 rivits. It's easy to move the gasket sandwich around so that the inner 2 pieces do not fit inside of each other properly.
This usually happens of you play with the gasket pulling apart the layers to check it out.
You have to make sure that when you lay the gasket on the block, that you push down with your hand and make sure that all the layers are interlocking properly.
These gaskets, the full metal gaskets, are not a new design. In fact, I've come to find that it's been around for a long time, as the Honda & supra crowd have been using the exact same gasket for years now... with no problems.
So anyway, I bet that you didn't get the layers to lock down properly.
I've been running these now for a while, and I'll never use anything else.
Also as a note, these are all that Huntley Racing and John Milledge will use now FWIW.
08-23-2003, 07:05 PM
#13
Rennlist Junkie Forever
Konstantin
Here's your problem... next time, don't mess with the gasket to check it out
I've posted a page with some pictures of a used gasket off of my car. Note, that on this gasket we tried to use copper spray on the gasket before installation (which Huntley Racing said not to use), and the gasket "weeped" a tiny tiny bit on the side, but self sealed after about an hour of engine running.
On the new gasket, I used no copper spray, and there was no weeping. Lesson learned... listen to Derrek!
On the photos on the link below, note the inner layer, which is is two pieces. The inner of the 2 pieces can move around when you hold the gasket in the air if you pull it apart to see what's in there (curiosity killed the KAT :-).
What has happened is that the inner middle piece is not aligned and is probably overlapping the inner outer piece resulting in a improper sealing (I'm surprised it seals at all!).
Don't feel bad.. you are not the first person to do this.
Take the head off, and you'll probably have to replace the gasket because it's probably damaged when you torqued the head down (did you notice that the head torqued "funny"?)..
Anyway, here's the link to the pictures...
CLICK HERE FOR THE PHOTOS!
Here's your problem... next time, don't mess with the gasket to check it out
I've posted a page with some pictures of a used gasket off of my car. Note, that on this gasket we tried to use copper spray on the gasket before installation (which Huntley Racing said not to use), and the gasket "weeped" a tiny tiny bit on the side, but self sealed after about an hour of engine running.
On the new gasket, I used no copper spray, and there was no weeping. Lesson learned... listen to Derrek!
On the photos on the link below, note the inner layer, which is is two pieces. The inner of the 2 pieces can move around when you hold the gasket in the air if you pull it apart to see what's in there (curiosity killed the KAT :-).
What has happened is that the inner middle piece is not aligned and is probably overlapping the inner outer piece resulting in a improper sealing (I'm surprised it seals at all!).
Don't feel bad.. you are not the first person to do this.
Take the head off, and you'll probably have to replace the gasket because it's probably damaged when you torqued the head down (did you notice that the head torqued "funny"?)..
Anyway, here's the link to the pictures...
CLICK HERE FOR THE PHOTOS!
08-24-2003, 10:57 PM
#14
Rennlist Member
Thread Starter
Well, for the record, I pulled the cam tower and re-torqued all the head nuts. Not one of them budged at all. I think the re-torque procedure was made up by the gasket manufacturer union.
Now if I can just figure out how to get my 10mm wrench out from under the washer fluid resevoir....
Now if I can just figure out how to get my 10mm wrench out from under the washer fluid resevoir....
08-25-2003, 10:07 AM
#15
Drifting
Originally posted by TonyG
Raceware studs are not "stretch to yeild" studs (commonly known as stretch bolts).
They do not need to be retorqued.
Raceware studs are not "stretch to yeild" studs (commonly known as stretch bolts).
They do not need to be retorqued.
Really?
I have installed a lot of these head studs in engines I have done. In most cases, certainly not all, the nuts will tighten additionally. I don't know about you but my time is valuable to me and I find it easier to just pull the cam housing and check than have to pull the head to replace the gasket.
Originally posted by TonyG
Tom M'Guinn
It certainly can't hurt to recheck/retorque with the exception that evertime you have to pull the cam tower and reinstall the cam tower you risk pulling the threads on the head that secure the cam tower (ask me how I know)....
I ended up having every threaded hole on my John Milledge head helicoiled to prevent what eventually happens with parts that are removed and reinstalled a few times... (and it wasn't cheap since there are a lot of threaded holes on the head!).
Good luck,
Tom M'Guinn
It certainly can't hurt to recheck/retorque with the exception that evertime you have to pull the cam tower and reinstall the cam tower you risk pulling the threads on the head that secure the cam tower (ask me how I know)....
I ended up having every threaded hole on my John Milledge head helicoiled to prevent what eventually happens with parts that are removed and reinstalled a few times... (and it wasn't cheap since there are a lot of threaded holes on the head!).
Good luck,
This only happened because you did not clear the oil from the holes before reinstalling the cam housing. When you removed it, it filled them up with oil. If you try to put it back together with the holes full of oil it WILL pull the threads as oil does not compress. It's not an issue with the head. You created that problem, sorry.