Meine44

My next train of thought is how much of a benefit is there to be had from dyno tuning?


Does the standalone really offer much more than the M-Tune? It seems people have been pretty pleased with the ease of installation-to-running time. In most cases, the base maps provided by Rogue Tuning don't need any tweaking; just truly a plug-and-play solutions.


Is it safe to assume the same can be said for the standalone kits made specifically for the 951? Will the Vi-Pec system with a full harness come with appropriate base maps or is it all over the board?

Thom

Why would you want the possibility to get access to the tune if you would not want to spend the required amount of time to get it right yourself? You may as well get someone burn you a chip.

What I mean here is that I see little reason to invest in an ECU upgrade if you are not interested yourself in learning how to get the tune right. And yes, my opinion (and experience) is that a tune can be perfected with zero dyno time. The other side of the coin is that it will take you tens of hours through all the 4 different seasons to get there.
If you want to get the tune right in no time without really feeling concerned how it works out, just get your car to someone who knows the Bosch Motronic inside and out and who will burn you a chip that suits your particular engine configuration. This assumes you may not want to spend money again on another tune should you feel like replacing major components such as the turbo, cam, etc.
The journey is the destination. Thinking in terms of "final engine tune" doesn't really makes sense anymore when you have full control of the tune yourself since it gives you the possiblity to evolve your set up in any direction for years to come, and the more mods done, the better return of investment over the long term when using a solution like the Link/Vi-PEC.
The other day I was chatting with a friend who is running a Vitesse MAF, and who said he needed to overrichen his whole fuel map tune to keep EGTs under control. With the Vi-PEC software I just added an auxiliary fuel trim table triggered by EGT x gear, and got it done in no time without altering the main fuel table. The more tables (read "dimensions") you can use to get your tune under control, the easier it gets.

rlm328

I have a 3L, GT30, ported intake and exhaust, after market cam, and 72 lb injectors to name a few modifications is the reason I have a stand alone.

rlm328

Why would you spend the time and energy on a different system not to have it optimized for your system.

Pauerman

Great comments Thom.

I'll definitely echo Thom's message about the move to a standalone system - if you are looking for a system that you don't intend on playing with, then a standalone system is NOT for you.

The funny thing is that we all are into gizmos and fancy gadgets that relay information to us about what or how are engines are doing - wideband o2 systems, EGT sensor / gauge, boost gauge, fuel pressure, etc. If you could consolidate all of this info into one package so that viewing, analyzing and adjustment can be accomplished easily and more cost effectively, wouldn't you?!?

This is one of the advantages that a standalone system offers. If you are interested in evaluating this information and making adjustments to make your engine run more efficiently, then a programmable system might be what you need.

Can a similar end result be accomplished using the DME? Yes. With this arrangement, you will use a few separate devices in conjunction with the DME to achieve a similar end result - more cost effective? Will fine tuning be required? Yes, if you want the tune for YOUR engine to be perfect considering your mods.

In my opinion, what is being overlooked about a standalone upgrade is that along with the common tuning features you would expect, these new ECU's include options / functions that represent hundreds of extra dollars in separate external devices if these functions were to be included into a DME based package.

"The journey is the destination" - this is absolutely spot on. Having functionality like gear based boost, TPS based boost delivery, flexibility to run wasted spark or fully sequential, close loop lambda (autotune), knock control, launch control, flat foot shifting, etc. These are the things that make using a standalone system FUN! If some view this degree of control as being overkill or unnecessary, then clearly a standalone system is not for you.

To a degree, I think this discussion revolves around what each individual see's as value. Some guys regard cost as the main measurement of value. Some will look at overall functionality of a product as value.

Since there are so few who have moved to standalone systems there is a lack of knowledge and experience about this upgrade. Clearly, most guys don't understand or recognize what a standalone computer can do. If we can start a dialogue about what they can offer, maybe it will become easier for the group to evaluate what they see as "value" and hopefully this will direct them towards a product that suits their needs.

refresh951

Rogue's Tuner setup is way better than burning a chip. You can essentially burn your own chip anytime you like. The base tune is generally pretty close and nice to have. You can be up and running in an hour or two. I am clearly not against standalones but the Rogue setup is easy to install and use. You have full access to fuel and timing maps and it is pretty reasonably priced. It has been a great tool for me to learn how to tune. For some I think a standalone can be pretty overwhelming. I guess what I liked about the Rogue setup is it allows you to ease into tuning without much experience but then it provides full access as your capabilities expand. Just my take on it.

Thom

I did not mean to talk down the Rogue solution in any way, as you Shawn and others have shown it's probably currently the best value-for-money ready to use solution ... for a 944 turbo.

A great positive using a popular standalone ECU like the Link/Vi-PEC is that it offers you the possiblity to widen your tuning knowledge by talking with people working on other platforms - since you are using the same software, you can compare the content of the respective tunes and put them in perspective with different engine architectures. This has helped me understand a few aspects about engine tuning in general that I probably would not have figured out myself if I had limited myself to the small circle of the 944 turbo tuning scene.

It seems easier to discuss with people running completely different cars as it's usually ok to share some tuning tips. There is interest from both sides.

It's not just about choosing a solution that makes your car super fast, it's also about broadening your appreciation of how an engine runs and performs.
To be honest, I have been in those cars for quite some time now, and going through the learning phases of a modern tuning tool has rejuvinated my interest in them. It's also quite cool to hear from established tuners that never see 944 turbos you have done a good job on your car.

Eckan

Using it on my -89 951 and it works great, excellent ECU and really cheap!
Capable to run up 6cyl full sequence
2 EGT direct inputs
Inbuilt wide band lambda controller LSU 4.2
etc. etc.
Price is under 1000 dollar!
And shipping is cheap due they are located in poland.

Pauerman

This looks like another great ECU option! Thank you for sharing.

Did you assemble the harness yourself or have someone do that for you?

rlm328

Harnesses are not that hard to make, but they can be time consuming during lay out. The crimper can also be troublesome to find depending on the connector.

But the best thing about a new harness is that it is new.

m42racer

This is a great discussion as so many engines have been hurt from poor calibrations or engines that did match the calibrations in the ECU's. Now more can find a solution that may save their engines from failing.

I think one of the reasons stand alones are not considered is the fear factor. The unknown of how to install, how to tune and what is a good safe tune. Todays EFI systems do most of ther work for you. For installation, a finished harness is a good thing if you have no skills in making one. The harnesss in these cars are old and crusty. Replacing it with a new one is a huge advantage. Its easy if directions and installation support is supplied. Then is down to tuning. If the system has been configured for the 944T application, thats another huge advantage. Using all factory sensors and the factory triggering is a money saver.

First figure out if you even need mapping control. What control you need and buy accordingly. Dont over buy a system and certainly dont under buy. If you have ideas of doing engine modifications in the future or you have already made these and the engine will not run properely, then a stand alone is a good idea.

Study the software you will be using. Is it easy to use. Is it comprehensive and does it actually do the things its supposed to do. Can it be changed to suit your own particular engine requirements. Does it have the ability to control the basic needs and future needs. Can it be configured to log data. Is the data easy to read. Can you log and monitor Oil pressure and maybe water system pressure so you can see if you are about to lose a head gasket or worse. That in itself is worth the extra money spent on the system. What support is available and can you learn about the software on line or in some media training course. Overcoming the fear factor by knowledge will open up your tuning world as it has been stated in prevoius posts.

Is the hardware modern and well made. Most systems considered today should be surface mounted and not through hole stuff.

Fear should not be the determining factor here. It should be your needs first, the system itself and its abilities and the support available that knows your application. Its of no point to buy a great system if the support available doesn't know the engine, has no history and experience about tuning a 944Turbo.

There a experts on this forum that know the systems they sell well, know these engines, and offer great support. Fear of the unknown should not even be factor.

Meine44

Alright, I'm back and I've decided what I want in an engine management system.


1. Electronic boost control
2. Knock detection & protection from detonation
3. Two fuel maps: Low boost 93 octane, Moderate boos t e85
4. Data logging with on-board memory (no external logger/computer hookup needed for logging

My goal is to reach ~350whp on 15psi or lower with the car, to keep it reliable but still fun.

A turbo upgrade would accompany the management system to achieve this goal, along with injectors.


I amm leaning toward the Vi-Pec option as it stands.

Voith

After much reading and researching I think I will go with this.

It is packed with functions even 4x more expensive units lack and costs €500.

http://ecumasterusa.com/downloads/emu-manual.pdf

Dougs951S

I like my megasquirt II unit. The rouge maf kit is an awesome kit for someone who wants plug and play, but I really like the flexibility running a speed/density tune gives me in terms of plumbing, and i love that i can adjust the tune as my setup changes. I never paid money to have my car dyno tuned, i did spend a loookong time tuning for many months as the weather changed though. I also learned a ton about tuning vehicles as they apply generally, and not just to 944's. Im able to take what I know about tuning and take what i know about the 951 motor and combine them to get a tune as good as any MAF tune. In addition i get fun exotic goodies like sequential fueling and sequential coil on plug ignition and the ability to run ITB's that you dont get with a MAF. I also get direct EBC boost solenoid control, antilag, launch control, ability to control up to 8 injectors and also the ability to do staged injection with two different sets of up to 4 fuel injectors which dont even have to be the same size. (a feature I'll be taking advantage of when I go to tune my 8 injector ITB setup) and other cool features only available via standalone. It was definitely more work to set up and tune but made a lot more sense for me at the time and if it matters, was less than half the cost of a MAF kit. I'm totally satisfied and would suggest anyone who likes projects and is goos at diy to give stand alone a try.

Voith

Check out the polish offerings for less than MS3pro.. Impressive.


6 fuel injector outputs (5A)
6 AUX outputs (5A)
6 ignition outputs -passive or active coils software selectable (7A)
4 stepper motor outputs - bipolar/unipolar (1A)
2 EGT direct inputs
2 knock sensor inputs
Inbuilt wide band lambda controller LSU 4.2
Inbuilt map sensor 400kPa (4bar/58psi)
Inbuilt baro sensor
4 digital inputs VR/HALL – software selectable
3 dedicated analogue inputs (TPS, CLT, IAT)
4 additional analogue inputs (0-5V)
compliance with ISO 7637
support 1-12 cylinders
max rpm 16000
injection time resolution 16us
ignition advance resolution 0,5 deg
knock sensing 1-20 kHz
Speed Density, Alpha-N algorithm
table VE 16x16, resolution 0,1% VE
ignition table 16x16, resolution 0,5 deg
AFR Target table 16x16m, resolution 0,1 AFR
Injector voltage compensation
coil dwell calibration
user calibrated IAT, CLT
PID idle control strategy
boost control,
nitro injection control;
Aux outputs for fuel pumps, rad fan ..
motorsport strategies launch control, gear dependent shift light, flat shift ( gear change cut)
logging over 100 parameters
possibility of check engine lamp
USB communication no additional interface needed
user friendly software with free firmware upgrade
manual and support in English and polish language
24 month warranty