Meine44

I am planning upgrades for the future and am having difficulty deciding what I want as far as engine management goes.

I would like to start with engine management first, since this is the best way to accommodate more upgrades in the future.


I am specifically wondering about the differences between Rogue M-tune (including new ECU and Tuner/Logger) and Vi-PEC standalone (available from PauerTuning). I'm wondering if anybody has any input as far as pro's & con's for each system, other than what I've come up with below:


Rogue M-Tune

Pro's:
Utilizes stock wiring harness (convenient)
Easy installation
Availability of multiple fueling maps
Race-proven reliability and drive-ability
Can purchase piece-by-piece (ECU, MAF, Tuner/Logger)

Con's
Lack of support for dyno-tuning
Not sure if integrated boost control is an option


Vi-Pec

Pro's:
Availability to be tuned on a dyno
Replaces dated factory computer
Replaces dated wiring harness (reliability)
Electronic boost control can be integrated

Cons:
Install is more difficult
Not sure if multiple fueling maps are available
Future upgrades may require dyno time--$$
External logger needed
Price $$$?

Both systems have AUTO TUNING functionality, and utilize the stock speed and reference sensors, so they will be able to accommodate future upgrades.

Both options would replace the factory computer, which would improve reliability.

Both options have knock prevention, either with a stock KLR or in the standalone computer.

What it comes down to is cost. The Rogue M-Tune and supporting upgrades (Rogue ECU, Rogue Tuner/Logger) would come in at roughly $2,400, give or take. From what I've been able to find, a Vi-PEC unit goes for around $2,000, and I'm not sure what it sells for with a fully terminated harness from PauerTuning, but that convenience along with an additional DataLogger system would mean higher cost.


My ultimate goal is to have a system that will allow for two fueling maps in one of the following combinations:

1) A low-boost (near stock) pump gas tune & a high-boost pump gas tune
2) A moderate boost pump gas tune & a high-boost E85 tune


So, in the end, does a higher cost justify having a standalone system and a possibility to tune the car on the dyno?

Or is the Rogue M-Tune close enough to a standalone system for there not to be a noticeable difference?

Paulyy

Both good systems!

the differences:

Rogue tuning:
airflow measure (controls fuel) - MAF
ignition is controlled by the MAP

V44:
both airflow and ignition is MAP

The difference? The v44 has no sensors pre turbo where the M-tune does.
does it make a difference? not really.

If you get the new Mtune DME logger and tuner,
you can tune & fine tune on the dyno. like a standalone.

they both can log. the m-tune requires it to be plugged into a computer. the V44 had 4mb onboard memory.

the m-tune had dual map configuration, the v44 doesn't
So for example i have 98 ron and e85 on a flick of a switch. High boost low boost would be the use of an external switchable boost controller. like this one http://www.turbosmartdirect.com/Prod...ler-Black.html


IMO, if you plan to modify it mildly under 370 rwhp with an upgraded turbo, exhaust, possibly some head work. cam shaft even.
I'd stick to the m-tune.
If you want to achieve maximum power with the lowest boost, different compression ratios, ITBs, coilpacks, wasted spark, sequential injection. ect. Then you'll need a standalone.

with the M-Tune you'll install and drive.
with the v44, i think it comes with a pre loaded map to get you started, but you'll need to tune it. even though it has auto tune, you still need to go through each cell and make sure it's 100%

CO951

I can't answer anything about the Vi-Pec, but have spent quite a bit of time talking and working with Josh of Rogue. He is brilliant and has put a lot of time and effort into making a near perfect setup specifically for our cars. I think you will have a hard time getting any better tuning.
On your pro for the Vi-Pec of replacing the dated ECU. The factory computer is very capable of handling the new processing demands required up the upgrades.

jmj951

I wouldn't completely consider the dated factory computer to be a con if you're going with M-tune because you can get an updated ECU from Josh, with several advantages over the original ECU - while retaining your factory harness.

Also, you can replace virtually all of the factory engine harness with kits from Lindsey. Not a quick install (I've done all but the S&R harness), but since they're available I wouldn't consider it to be a concern.

Meine44

I'm mostly interested in the logging capabilities and ease of dyno tuning of both of the systems.

I'm worried that with the M-Tune a dyno shop will shy away from tuning the system, as many are not familiar with the car or the MAF kit. The standalone solution might be easier to swallow for most shops. This really depends on the "auto-tune" feature of each system. If I upgrade the turbo in the future, from what I've gathered, the M-Tune would need no dyno time, but the standalone system might.

As far as logging goes, the Vi-Pec system logs data with or without a computer attached to it. The Rogue tuner/logger needs a computer, so that would require an external logger for normal driving, as I do not wish to always have a laptop connected at all times. That brings on another question: can the Rogue Tuner be used with other data logging software, or does it have to be a Rogue Logger? For the cost and redundancy of having 2 data logging systems, price would begin to rival that of the standalone.

So here's the positive aspects I've gathered up to this point:


M-Tune -- Ease of tuning, availability to have dual maps

Vi-Pec -- More in-depth tuning, more economical if internal engine work is planned



My build plans are to match the power I have now, but reduce the boost pressure. I have an Autothority MAF, but it is ancient and inefficient. I'd like the ability to run a larger turbo to get the same power numbers at lower boost, or possibly higher horsepower at the same boost pressure the car is currently running.

It seems that the Rogue system (MAF, ECU, Tuner/Logger) will be a lot of equipment to find space for in the car (not to mention the wiring spider's nest that would ensue), and if I can have all of the functionality it offers localized into a single control unit, I'd be leaning more toward a standalone system.


So it all comes down to what is more important:

Availability of dual-maps VS. Less hardware and circuitry

Meine44

The new ECU from Josh would be on my list along with the M-Tune, which is why it is in the PRO'S section [i.e. "Replaces dated factory computer]

I'm interested in replacing the DME not because of it's capabilities, but because of its increased age (and the subsequent decrease of reliability)

As far as engine harness replacements from Lindsey: they are available, but if the Vi-Pec from PauerTuning comes with a fully terminated harness for the right price, then the full Rogue system with all new harness components would cost substantially more in the long-term.

Thales

Vic at PauerTuning also offers a less expensive standalone solution called the "Atom". Relative to the i44, it has fewer channels, so no true sequential ignition/injection, just upgraded from batch to group fire (someone correct me, but I think the M-Tune is group fire as well). It still has boost control and passive knock detection can be added. There are also ignition options if you want to add wasted spark.

When I talked to Vic, I think the Atom including MAP/IAT sensors, ecu, new harness, high output coil, KnockLink, and boost solenoid was $2530. There may be an option to buy the setup without the harness completed for ~$1920 (only the connectors are supplied) but you would need to ask him about that.

I like the simplicity of the MAP/speed density setup, but need to do some more research myself.

Meine44

Sounds like a more economical option, as I am not interested in sequential set-up.

Do you have a price of the V-44 with a full harness?

shortyboy

Theres a few threads where Vic has chimed in and provided some input regarding the system he offers, but cant speak much of it because hes not a site vendor. I was in the same situation choosing between the two and for me, as well for the price, The Vi-Pec system is the route Ill be going. Probably not unitl the end of the year. But if you are confident in soldering your own harness to the connectors, it can be had for a very reasonable price. For plug and play, both are well tested and both offer base maps to start out with. Hope Josh and Vic can chime in.

Thales

From Vic:

"The higher ECU models are offered in full sequential format only and kit pricing starts at $3650 for the Link Storm and $4000 for the i44. Difference between these two options is that the i44 come preloaded with functions like digital knock control, larger internal memory for logging, E-throttle capability. The Storm can be upgraded with any or all of these options at an additional cost."

It sounds like we had very similar type questions... I can forward you my entire email conversation with Vic if you like.

Thom went with one of these more expensive options, maybe he can chime in as well.

Meine44

Wow, I've heard of Vi-Pec V44 computers going for $2,250, so basically the wiring harness is going to cost $1,750. Better off just going with a MegaSquirt or MicroSquirt and wiring it yourself if that is the case.

shortyboy

if youre wiring the your harness to the connectors provided, itll be alot cheaper. If you get the full package from Rogue Tunning, DME, MAF, Tunner and Logger, youre looking at $2480 using the same engine harness. Which ever you go, you'll have great support from both.

Thales

I think the Storm/i44 "kits" he is referring to includes a 4 coil sequential ignition setup and billet mount, boost solenoid, sensors, and harness. Not sure what else, I would just email him.

I am currently considering the Atom or M-Tune.

Meine44

There are also other Stand-Alone options available:



Link G4 (plug-and-play)

VEMS (popular with Audi guys)

MicroSquirt

MegaSquirt




Perhaps someone will chime in with information on these?

raleighBahn

Sounds good. I'm taking the opposite approach and going for suspension, brakes, and hpde first, engine management later (or never). I didn't have this mindset until blazing around VIR to the limited extent of my abilities. My best performance upgrades will be driving ability and then lightening my car by going on a diet