951 vs Corvette where the rivalry started
#1
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951 vs Corvette where the rivalry started
951 vs Corvette where the rivalry started, pretty good article, back to the mid 80's, now of course there is no contest at all the vette was continually developed through the years, while the 951 was dropped thanks to the most vision lacking 951 project manager Porsche ever had, Jochen Freund.
here is the article vette vs 951
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/che...e/excerpt.html
and if you want to see why I believe Jochen was at fault for the lack of development of the 951 I'll post the article
here is the article vette vs 951
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/che...e/excerpt.html
and if you want to see why I believe Jochen was at fault for the lack of development of the 951 I'll post the article
#2
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951 vs Corvette where the rivalry started, pretty good article, back to the mid 80's, now of course there is no contest at all the vette was continually developed through the years, while the 951 was dropped thanks to the most vision lacking 951 project manager Porsche ever had, Jochen Freund.
here is the article vette vs 951
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/che...e/excerpt.html
and if you want to see why I believe Jochen was at fault for the lack of development of the 951 I'll post the article
here is the article vette vs 951
http://www.bentleypublishers.com/che...e/excerpt.html
and if you want to see why I believe Jochen was at fault for the lack of development of the 951 I'll post the article
#3
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Automobile magazine (February 1989) asked 944 senior project manager Jochen Freund if we might see a 16-valve 3.0-liter turbo in our future. He answered, "No. The turbo engine doesn't need extra valves. A turbocharger makes it breathe as hard as you want." He went on to say that ["two hundred and forty-seven horsepower were enough." This proved untrue when Porsche later made a very few 305 horsepower 3.0-liter 968 Turbos (also eight-valve).
#5
Automobile magazine (February 1989) asked 944 senior project manager Jochen Freund if we might see a 16-valve 3.0-liter turbo in our future. He answered, "No. The turbo engine doesn't need extra valves. A turbocharger makes it breathe as hard as you want." He went on to say that ["two hundred and forty-seven horsepower were enough." This proved untrue when Porsche later made a very few 305 horsepower 3.0-liter 968 Turbos (also eight-valve).
I believe this may have been how the term "*****" started as it relates to guys with no *****.
#6
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"Corvette was out for winning all the time, and Porsche was barred because the 944 Turbo was still so much faster than any of the other cars that they would have dominated the series without the Corvettes"... Priceless
#7
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Porsche had developed the 944 Turbo as a serious race car for European competition. For the SCCA Showroom Stock Series, the company was only mildly constrained by the rules. It brought whatever it needed to the track, whether it was in production, about to be produced, or experimental.
SCCA bent over backward trying to help Porsche get into the winner’s circle. Even though we would complain about the concessions made for Porsche, it was the right thing to do for the racing series. For SCCA and the spectators, having Corvette and Porsche each winning half the time would have been just right. SCCA also had received assurances that the Nissan 300 ZX turbo would return, and that Mazda was also considering entering the series.
Given the concessions that SCCA had made for Porsche, and that the 944 Turbos were as fast or slightly faster than the Corvettes on a straightaway, Corvette felt it had the right to petition SCCA for more freedom in engine preparation. With the improvements that were agreed to, the Corvettes would run at 350-375 hp, which was still down in power from where we expected the turbocharged Porsches to be
SCCA bent over backward trying to help Porsche get into the winner’s circle. Even though we would complain about the concessions made for Porsche, it was the right thing to do for the racing series. For SCCA and the spectators, having Corvette and Porsche each winning half the time would have been just right. SCCA also had received assurances that the Nissan 300 ZX turbo would return, and that Mazda was also considering entering the series.
Given the concessions that SCCA had made for Porsche, and that the 944 Turbos were as fast or slightly faster than the Corvettes on a straightaway, Corvette felt it had the right to petition SCCA for more freedom in engine preparation. With the improvements that were agreed to, the Corvettes would run at 350-375 hp, which was still down in power from where we expected the turbocharged Porsches to be
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#8
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I recently came across a quote attributed to Mark Donahue in response to being asked if the 917/30 had too much hp (a car well under 2lbs/hp, 10.9 sec to 200mph!) . To paraphrase, his response was something to the effect of - until a car can leave black marks (spin the wheels) all the way down the straight in top gear, there is no such thing as too much hp....
#9
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I agree that this was a clearly tragic mistake ...
I just wonder how much say, this guy had at Porsche?
As stated earlier, I think any car that out preformed the 911, was to be doomed at Porsche ... It's that simple
There was no doubt that the 88 TS manhandled the 911Turbo, ( I think, then called the 930?) at the track ...
I was there at the time, and to my good friends great discomfort, I showed him what the car was capable of. I passed him and never saw him again.
So, I really don't know how much leeway this guy, Jochen Freund had to make those decisions ???
My money is on, that he was just saying what the company wanted him to say .... ??? I guess we will never know ?
I did a search on, Jochen Freund, and got basically nothing ...
Edit
Here is proof....
Go to 2:25 on the video, ( first lap is no passing ) My friend was reluctant to give a wave by, as you can see...
I just wonder how much say, this guy had at Porsche?
As stated earlier, I think any car that out preformed the 911, was to be doomed at Porsche ... It's that simple
There was no doubt that the 88 TS manhandled the 911Turbo, ( I think, then called the 930?) at the track ...
I was there at the time, and to my good friends great discomfort, I showed him what the car was capable of. I passed him and never saw him again.
So, I really don't know how much leeway this guy, Jochen Freund had to make those decisions ???
My money is on, that he was just saying what the company wanted him to say .... ??? I guess we will never know ?
I did a search on, Jochen Freund, and got basically nothing ...
Edit
Here is proof....
#10
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I agree that this was a clearly tragic mistake ...
I just wonder how much say, this guy had at Porsche?
As stated earlier, I think any car that out preformed the 911, was to be doomed at Porsche ... It's that simple
There was no doubt that the 88 TS manhandled the 911Turbo, ( I think, then called the 930?) at the track ...
I was there at the time, and to my good friends great discomfort, I showed him what the car was capable of. I passed him and never saw him again.
So, I really don't know how much leeway this guy, Jochen Freund had to make those decisions ???
My money is on, that he was just saying what the company wanted him to say .... ??? I guess we will never know ?
I did a search on his name and got basically nothing ...
I just wonder how much say, this guy had at Porsche?
As stated earlier, I think any car that out preformed the 911, was to be doomed at Porsche ... It's that simple
There was no doubt that the 88 TS manhandled the 911Turbo, ( I think, then called the 930?) at the track ...
I was there at the time, and to my good friends great discomfort, I showed him what the car was capable of. I passed him and never saw him again.
So, I really don't know how much leeway this guy, Jochen Freund had to make those decisions ???
My money is on, that he was just saying what the company wanted him to say .... ??? I guess we will never know ?
I did a search on his name and got basically nothing ...
#11
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I agree that this was a clearly tragic mistake ...
I just wonder how much say, this guy had at Porsche?
As stated earlier, I think any car that out preformed the 911, was to be doomed at Porsche ... It's that simple
There was no doubt that the 88 TS manhandled the 911Turbo, ( I think, then called the 930?) at the track ...
I was there at the time, and to my good friends great discomfort, I showed him what the car was capable of. I passed him and never saw him again.
So, I really don't know how much leeway this guy, Jochen Freund had to make those decisions ???
My money is on, that he was just saying what the company wanted him to say .... ??? I guess we will never know ?
I did a search on, Jochen Freund, and got basically nothing ...
Edit
Here is proof....
Go to 2:25 on the video, ( first lap is no passing ) My friend was reluctant to give a wave by, as you can see...
I just wonder how much say, this guy had at Porsche?
As stated earlier, I think any car that out preformed the 911, was to be doomed at Porsche ... It's that simple
There was no doubt that the 88 TS manhandled the 911Turbo, ( I think, then called the 930?) at the track ...
I was there at the time, and to my good friends great discomfort, I showed him what the car was capable of. I passed him and never saw him again.
So, I really don't know how much leeway this guy, Jochen Freund had to make those decisions ???
My money is on, that he was just saying what the company wanted him to say .... ??? I guess we will never know ?
I did a search on, Jochen Freund, and got basically nothing ...
Edit
Here is proof....
Go to 2:25 on the video, ( first lap is no passing ) My friend was reluctant to give a wave by, as you can see...
check this video at the 1:19 mark
#12
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#13
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It is a sad truth the 944 series was handicapped by the 911 on purpose, along with the 928.
It sill continues today. Everyone knows the Cayman S with 911 power would be the superior automobile.
The Corvette / 944 article brings back awesome memories. My first laps around Road America was in the passenger seat of John Andretti's former Corvette Challenge car.
The 16V 944 has such potential, it pains me to think what could have been. Which reminds me, I really need to get my 944S back on the road.
Thanks for posting.
It sill continues today. Everyone knows the Cayman S with 911 power would be the superior automobile.
The Corvette / 944 article brings back awesome memories. My first laps around Road America was in the passenger seat of John Andretti's former Corvette Challenge car.
The 16V 944 has such potential, it pains me to think what could have been. Which reminds me, I really need to get my 944S back on the road.
Thanks for posting.
#14
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This does bring back memories.
I remember from the automotive press in the early 80’s that Porsche was going for the more modern water-cooled front engine designs and would fade out the rear engine behind the wheels design, which (mostly European) auto journalists had declared dangerous.
Porsche apparently was unaware that the US customers had fallen in love with the 911 looks, so the front engine cars never sold in the numbers they had expected.
Maybe the pricing was part of an attempt to phase the 944T out, since it ended up costing nearly $50k, which in today’s dollars is $94k.
To my eyes the 944T is one of the best looking German cars. My 944T still gets stares and the occasional thumbs up by many owners of modern Porsches.
Laust
I remember from the automotive press in the early 80’s that Porsche was going for the more modern water-cooled front engine designs and would fade out the rear engine behind the wheels design, which (mostly European) auto journalists had declared dangerous.
Porsche apparently was unaware that the US customers had fallen in love with the 911 looks, so the front engine cars never sold in the numbers they had expected.
Maybe the pricing was part of an attempt to phase the 944T out, since it ended up costing nearly $50k, which in today’s dollars is $94k.
To my eyes the 944T is one of the best looking German cars. My 944T still gets stares and the occasional thumbs up by many owners of modern Porsches.
Laust
#15
Let's not forget, Porsche management had more worries beyond new vs old platforms. At the time, they were struggling mightily with exchange rates and some pretty stiff competition in the US. The 944 was extremely expensive compared to Japanese cars with similar performance and handling.