Mobil 1 0w-40?
08-29-2013, 12:38 AM
#76
Team Owner
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: one thousand, five hundred miles north of Ft. Lauderdale for the summer.
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I can provide you to another sort of information. From my point of view very interesting and worth reading it, indeed.
Here's the link
Here's the link
exactly and in the context of those of you running turbos. this is precisely why I posted that table *(see below), proving once and for all, the 0w50 oil while being almost thin enough @ startup to flow perfectly through the crankshaft on those really cold winter mornings, it is thick enough in spades to make it all the way to the highest operating temperatures even your turbo engines will see (top that temperature rating on the label):
*and this point of view is bolstered in the quote below (from the article you posted)....
Oils are divided into grades (not weights) such as a 20, 30 or 40 grade oils. This represents the viscosity range at operating temperature. But it is NOT the actual viscosity as we shall see. The issue is that viscosity is temperature dependent. Let’s look at a 30 grade oil and how the viscosity of this grade of oil varies with temperature:
30 grade oil (often referred to as a 30 “weight” oil):
Temperature ( F )....Thickness
302...........................3
212..........................10
104..........................100
32..........................250 (rough estimate)
The automotive designers usually call for their engines to run at 212 F oil and water temperature with an oil thickness of 10.
This is the viscosity of the oil, not the weight or grade as labeled on the oil can. I want to stay away from those numbers as they are confusing. We are talking about oil thickness, not oil can labeling. This will be discussed later. Forget the numbers on that oil can for now. We are only discussing the thickness of the oil that the engine requires during normal operating conditions.
The engine is designed to run at 212 F at all external temperatures from Alaska to Florida. You can get in your car in Florida in September and drive zig-zag to Alaska arriving in November. The best thing for your engine would be that it was never turned off, you simply kept driving day and night. The oil thickness would be uniform, it would always be 10. In a perfect world the oil thickness would be 10 at all times and all temperatures.
30 grade oil (often referred to as a 30 “weight” oil):
Temperature ( F )....Thickness
302...........................3
212..........................10
104..........................100
32..........................250 (rough estimate)
The automotive designers usually call for their engines to run at 212 F oil and water temperature with an oil thickness of 10.
This is the viscosity of the oil, not the weight or grade as labeled on the oil can. I want to stay away from those numbers as they are confusing. We are talking about oil thickness, not oil can labeling. This will be discussed later. Forget the numbers on that oil can for now. We are only discussing the thickness of the oil that the engine requires during normal operating conditions.
The engine is designed to run at 212 F at all external temperatures from Alaska to Florida. You can get in your car in Florida in September and drive zig-zag to Alaska arriving in November. The best thing for your engine would be that it was never turned off, you simply kept driving day and night. The oil thickness would be uniform, it would always be 10. In a perfect world the oil thickness would be 10 at all times and all temperatures.
in the table below I used a 15w50 grade synthetic that runs on the thicker side: Redline....
notice how at operating temp, their 20w50 oil is less than 1 % thicker.
oil/SAE grade ................... visc @ 104° F............................. visc @ running temp / 212°F
Mobil 1 20w50 V-Twin............. 172 ..............................................,. 20.8
Redline 20w50 ....................... 148 ............................................,.. 19.8
Redline 15w50 ....................... 138 ............................................... 19.6
Mobil 1 15w50 ....................... 125 ............................................... 18
Mobil 1 5w50 Rally Oil ............. 108 ............................................... 17.5
Mobil 1 0w50 Racing Oil ........... 100 ............................................... 17.2
Mobil 1 10w40 ......................... 96 ................................................ 14.7
Mobil 1 0w40 ........................... 75 ................................................ 13.5
it's that time of the year again....
no better time to stock up on the best oil money can buy (for after the warm summer sunny weather fades to grey).
12.99/qt.
http://www.nissanraceshop.com/produc...Fao7OgodHjwALQ
.
08-29-2013, 04:30 AM
#77
Rennlist Member
...
08-29-2013, 10:01 AM
#78
Drifting
The 944 series ( all) are susceptible to no 2 conrod bearing failing due to oil bubbles forming in a high core temp engine( very hot engine oil ) at high engine RPM & yes this is made a lot worse at the track on say a Porsche club day . I have lost count how many 944 series cars ( 944 / 944s/944S2/951/968 ) that over the years ( at the track) we have warned owners not to run anything other than a 25w-60 ( min vis) racing type of oil( on the track ONLY) & all that had run the thinner viscosities at the track ( like 5w-40 , 10w-40 even one with 15W-50 ) their engine blew no 2 conrod bearings in no time at all ( track time) = destroyed engine
The ones that ran 25w-60 ( with new conrod bearings , not old worn bearings) have no issues in this regard
Now why did I mention that I hear you say ?
Answer is quite simple , the fad of useing 0w something in this case a 0w - 50 sounds OK ish for say street work in a last century Porsche if the ambient ( out side temps) are below the freezing point of water ( 0 deg Cel ) most of the time during winter , up to this point all seems OK
But there are two big problems
The above chart( kindly posted by Odurandina) tells it all , the viscosity of two engine oils made by the same oil company at 212 deg F ( 100 deg cel) are very different , meaning the very criticle hot oil pressure will not be enough with one of them , even though the last oil viscosity number of both oils end with a 50
Note } the higher the viscosity the higher the oil pressure ( be it any temp)
Example } The Mobil 1 20w-50 V Twin has a viscosity of 20.8 at 212F
The Mobil 1 0 - 50 racing has a viscosity of 17.2 at 212 F ( WTF )
That means the hot ( high core temp) oil pressureof the 0W-50 at high RPM is bordering on insufficient for a last century Porsche or put another way it is placing a last century Porsche engine at higher risk .
I am interested as to why the 0w-50 is labeled with the last number of 50 , its more like a 45 compared to the other oil they make = 20w-50 V Twin
So I would not use a 0W-50 in a last century 951 at the track if the ambient temp was above freezing , if however the ambient temp was say (minus 4 deg F ) or (minus 20 deg celcius) , then I might be tempted , but I think the track would be ice/snow & the tyres will have metal studs , but the oil temp with this scenario would still have to be manageable ( less than 95 deg cel )
The 2nd thing is that being a "racing " oil its low on detergents , so that means the 0w-50 racing oil if used as a street oil , then the oil change intervals have to be a lot more often ( boy at this price that will not go down well )
Basic rule of thumb in last century Porsche's , if say you experience the oil pressure insufficient warning light comming on engine core temp high & at idle ( in this case a 944/951 etc) this means that the oil pressure is too low & as you rev the engine out its oil pressure is low all through the rev range which in turn put no 2 conrod bearing at greater risk at high RPM / high load , I think looking at the numbers ( kindly posted by odurandina ) that the 0W-50 in the heat of summer with a 951 stuck in traffic for a few hours or more that I would not be at all surprised by the low oil pressure warning comming on
So that makes it not very suitable for a summer in in a 951
Intersting subnote } Porsche in their owners manuals that came with last century Porsche's , be it 911 , 930 , 924, 944, 944s .944S2 .951 ,968 ,928/S4/GT/GTS had listed on the oil viscosity page that a 20w-50 engine oil is recommended from minus 10 deg cel ( 14 deg F ) to unlimited high ambient temps
And before 1983 Porsche recommended a 20w-50 from minus 15deg cel ( 5 deg F ) to unlimited high temps
Interesting subnote 2 } The first thing one notices with a 944 / 951 & a bit more so with a 944S2 / 968 is when one uses say a 5w-40 the engine is very noticeably noisy & when hot more so & then when the core temp reaches the low oil pressure warning at idle the engine is extremely noisy = instant metal to metal clanging sounds , its the sounds of music to my ears , more repairs comming up
I love the human thing of people using this century low viscosity engine oils in last century Porsche engines , its the sounds of the cash register to me
The ones that ran 25w-60 ( with new conrod bearings , not old worn bearings) have no issues in this regard
Now why did I mention that I hear you say ?
Answer is quite simple , the fad of useing 0w something in this case a 0w - 50 sounds OK ish for say street work in a last century Porsche if the ambient ( out side temps) are below the freezing point of water ( 0 deg Cel ) most of the time during winter , up to this point all seems OK
But there are two big problems
The above chart( kindly posted by Odurandina) tells it all , the viscosity of two engine oils made by the same oil company at 212 deg F ( 100 deg cel) are very different , meaning the very criticle hot oil pressure will not be enough with one of them , even though the last oil viscosity number of both oils end with a 50
Note } the higher the viscosity the higher the oil pressure ( be it any temp)
Example } The Mobil 1 20w-50 V Twin has a viscosity of 20.8 at 212F
The Mobil 1 0 - 50 racing has a viscosity of 17.2 at 212 F ( WTF )
That means the hot ( high core temp) oil pressureof the 0W-50 at high RPM is bordering on insufficient for a last century Porsche or put another way it is placing a last century Porsche engine at higher risk .
I am interested as to why the 0w-50 is labeled with the last number of 50 , its more like a 45 compared to the other oil they make = 20w-50 V Twin
So I would not use a 0W-50 in a last century 951 at the track if the ambient temp was above freezing , if however the ambient temp was say (minus 4 deg F ) or (minus 20 deg celcius) , then I might be tempted , but I think the track would be ice/snow & the tyres will have metal studs , but the oil temp with this scenario would still have to be manageable ( less than 95 deg cel )
The 2nd thing is that being a "racing " oil its low on detergents , so that means the 0w-50 racing oil if used as a street oil , then the oil change intervals have to be a lot more often ( boy at this price that will not go down well )
Basic rule of thumb in last century Porsche's , if say you experience the oil pressure insufficient warning light comming on engine core temp high & at idle ( in this case a 944/951 etc) this means that the oil pressure is too low & as you rev the engine out its oil pressure is low all through the rev range which in turn put no 2 conrod bearing at greater risk at high RPM / high load , I think looking at the numbers ( kindly posted by odurandina ) that the 0W-50 in the heat of summer with a 951 stuck in traffic for a few hours or more that I would not be at all surprised by the low oil pressure warning comming on
So that makes it not very suitable for a summer in in a 951
Intersting subnote } Porsche in their owners manuals that came with last century Porsche's , be it 911 , 930 , 924, 944, 944s .944S2 .951 ,968 ,928/S4/GT/GTS had listed on the oil viscosity page that a 20w-50 engine oil is recommended from minus 10 deg cel ( 14 deg F ) to unlimited high ambient temps
And before 1983 Porsche recommended a 20w-50 from minus 15deg cel ( 5 deg F ) to unlimited high temps
Interesting subnote 2 } The first thing one notices with a 944 / 951 & a bit more so with a 944S2 / 968 is when one uses say a 5w-40 the engine is very noticeably noisy & when hot more so & then when the core temp reaches the low oil pressure warning at idle the engine is extremely noisy = instant metal to metal clanging sounds , its the sounds of music to my ears , more repairs comming up
I love the human thing of people using this century low viscosity engine oils in last century Porsche engines , its the sounds of the cash register to me
08-29-2013, 02:23 PM
#79
The 944 series ( all) are susceptible to no 2 conrod bearing failing due to oil bubbles forming in a high core temp engine( very hot engine oil ) at high engine RPM & yes this is made a lot worse at the track on say a Porsche club day . I have lost count how many 944 series cars ( 944 / 944s/944S2/951/968 ) that over the years ( at the track) we have warned owners not to run anything other than a 25w-60 ( min vis) racing type of oil( on the track ONLY) & all that had run the thinner viscosities at the track ( like 5w-40 , 10w-40 even one with 15W-50 ) their engine blew no 2 conrod bearings in no time at all ( track time) = destroyed engine
The ones that ran 25w-60 ( with new conrod bearings , not old worn bearings) have no issues in this regard
Now why did I mention that I hear you say ?
Answer is quite simple , the fad of useing 0w something in this case a 0w - 50 sounds OK ish for say street work in a last century Porsche if the ambient ( out side temps) are below the freezing point of water ( 0 deg Cel ) most of the time during winter , up to this point all seems OK
But there are two big problems
The above chart( kindly posted by Odurandina) tells it all , the viscosity of two engine oils made by the same oil company at 212 deg F ( 100 deg cel) are very different , meaning the very criticle hot oil pressure will not be enough with one of them , even though the last oil viscosity number of both oils end with a 50
Note } the higher the viscosity the higher the oil pressure ( be it any temp)
Example } The Mobil 1 20w-50 V Twin has a viscosity of 20.8 at 212F
The Mobil 1 0 - 50 racing has a viscosity of 17.2 at 212 F ( WTF )
That means the hot ( high core temp) oil pressureof the 0W-50 at high RPM is bordering on insufficient for a last century Porsche or put another way it is placing a last century Porsche engine at higher risk .
I am interested as to why the 0w-50 is labeled with the last number of 50 , its more like a 45 compared to the other oil they make = 20w-50 V Twin
So I would not use a 0W-50 in a last century 951 at the track if the ambient temp was above freezing , if however the ambient temp was say (minus 4 deg F ) or (minus 20 deg celcius) , then I might be tempted , but I think the track would be ice/snow & the tyres will have metal studs , but the oil temp with this scenario would still have to be manageable ( less than 95 deg cel )
The 2nd thing is that being a "racing " oil its low on detergents , so that means the 0w-50 racing oil if used as a street oil , then the oil change intervals have to be a lot more often ( boy at this price that will not go down well )
Basic rule of thumb in last century Porsche's , if say you experience the oil pressure insufficient warning light comming on engine core temp high & at idle ( in this case a 944/951 etc) this means that the oil pressure is too low & as you rev the engine out its oil pressure is low all through the rev range which in turn put no 2 conrod bearing at greater risk at high RPM / high load , I think looking at the numbers ( kindly posted by odurandina ) that the 0W-50 in the heat of summer with a 951 stuck in traffic for a few hours or more that I would not be at all surprised by the low oil pressure warning comming on
So that makes it not very suitable for a summer in in a 951
Intersting subnote } Porsche in their owners manuals that came with last century Porsche's , be it 911 , 930 , 924, 944, 944s .944S2 .951 ,968 ,928/S4/GT/GTS had listed on the oil viscosity page that a 20w-50 engine oil is recommended from minus 10 deg cel ( 14 deg F ) to unlimited high ambient temps
And before 1983 Porsche recommended a 20w-50 from minus 15deg cel ( 5 deg F ) to unlimited high temps
Interesting subnote 2 } The first thing one notices with a 944 / 951 & a bit more so with a 944S2 / 968 is when one uses say a 5w-40 the engine is very noticeably noisy & when hot more so & then when the core temp reaches the low oil pressure warning at idle the engine is extremely noisy = instant metal to metal clanging sounds , its the sounds of music to my ears , more repairs comming up
I love the human thing of people using this century low viscosity engine oils in last century Porsche engines , its the sounds of the cash register to me
The ones that ran 25w-60 ( with new conrod bearings , not old worn bearings) have no issues in this regard
Now why did I mention that I hear you say ?
Answer is quite simple , the fad of useing 0w something in this case a 0w - 50 sounds OK ish for say street work in a last century Porsche if the ambient ( out side temps) are below the freezing point of water ( 0 deg Cel ) most of the time during winter , up to this point all seems OK
But there are two big problems
The above chart( kindly posted by Odurandina) tells it all , the viscosity of two engine oils made by the same oil company at 212 deg F ( 100 deg cel) are very different , meaning the very criticle hot oil pressure will not be enough with one of them , even though the last oil viscosity number of both oils end with a 50
Note } the higher the viscosity the higher the oil pressure ( be it any temp)
Example } The Mobil 1 20w-50 V Twin has a viscosity of 20.8 at 212F
The Mobil 1 0 - 50 racing has a viscosity of 17.2 at 212 F ( WTF )
That means the hot ( high core temp) oil pressureof the 0W-50 at high RPM is bordering on insufficient for a last century Porsche or put another way it is placing a last century Porsche engine at higher risk .
I am interested as to why the 0w-50 is labeled with the last number of 50 , its more like a 45 compared to the other oil they make = 20w-50 V Twin
So I would not use a 0W-50 in a last century 951 at the track if the ambient temp was above freezing , if however the ambient temp was say (minus 4 deg F ) or (minus 20 deg celcius) , then I might be tempted , but I think the track would be ice/snow & the tyres will have metal studs , but the oil temp with this scenario would still have to be manageable ( less than 95 deg cel )
The 2nd thing is that being a "racing " oil its low on detergents , so that means the 0w-50 racing oil if used as a street oil , then the oil change intervals have to be a lot more often ( boy at this price that will not go down well )
Basic rule of thumb in last century Porsche's , if say you experience the oil pressure insufficient warning light comming on engine core temp high & at idle ( in this case a 944/951 etc) this means that the oil pressure is too low & as you rev the engine out its oil pressure is low all through the rev range which in turn put no 2 conrod bearing at greater risk at high RPM / high load , I think looking at the numbers ( kindly posted by odurandina ) that the 0W-50 in the heat of summer with a 951 stuck in traffic for a few hours or more that I would not be at all surprised by the low oil pressure warning comming on
So that makes it not very suitable for a summer in in a 951
Intersting subnote } Porsche in their owners manuals that came with last century Porsche's , be it 911 , 930 , 924, 944, 944s .944S2 .951 ,968 ,928/S4/GT/GTS had listed on the oil viscosity page that a 20w-50 engine oil is recommended from minus 10 deg cel ( 14 deg F ) to unlimited high ambient temps
And before 1983 Porsche recommended a 20w-50 from minus 15deg cel ( 5 deg F ) to unlimited high temps
Interesting subnote 2 } The first thing one notices with a 944 / 951 & a bit more so with a 944S2 / 968 is when one uses say a 5w-40 the engine is very noticeably noisy & when hot more so & then when the core temp reaches the low oil pressure warning at idle the engine is extremely noisy = instant metal to metal clanging sounds , its the sounds of music to my ears , more repairs comming up
I love the human thing of people using this century low viscosity engine oils in last century Porsche engines , its the sounds of the cash register to me
08-29-2013, 03:42 PM
#80
Team Owner
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: one thousand, five hundred miles north of Ft. Lauderdale for the summer.
Posts: 28,705
Received 212 Likes
on
153 Posts
Bruce,
it's odd that he 0w50 is becoming a popular oil with the LSx crowd who're experiencing good results tracking this oil. it's also the same grade many crews are running in ALMS.... (mentioning it cuz i'm paying my engine shop on the 4th of September for my short-stroke LS7 monster, and this is probably the oil i'll run after break-in).... hopefully, the 3.0 will be sitting in Rogue Ant's shop by early next spring, and he should be able to offer a good report on the wear of the variocam's internals... somewhat scary that an oil could ever have a viscosity range that puts you in the safe zone for a Detroit v8 and also a 944T..... however, if you read the late Porsche lubricant update release (pdf file below), it would seem that Porsche is even more comfortable with the 0w oils than even most of us are....
but I was talking about a winter oil safe for the cold startups and street driving....
*(Porsche also released in that update that they're now recommending only hydrocracked or synthetic oils)... as i read the memo, I got the impression they're fully on board with the cold startup flow of the 0w oils vs film higher strength offered by the ultra-thick stuff. still, i'm not sure how they got here, in the context of the soft engine bearings in the older engines.
I learned about premature wear and the importance of running a 50 weight oil from reading your posts the last few years. and I appreciate that you've been reading mine. it's really lopsided because you work on the cars, and see the stuff coming out of the engines, and all I do is drive.... with that being said, I ran my 3.0 so hard for so long.... so much near the redline with the 0w40, if there was any chance of my engine grenading, I would think it would have done so already.... It would be epic to see one of your clients run 0w50 for 120 k miles or simply race it, and then have you tear it down and report your findings.
still, i'm not sure we're talking about the same kind of driving. my posts refer to normal and spirited street driving only. and it's here that i'm all about suggesting 0w50 or 5w50 (for anyone new to the forums) for the winter oil change....
I'm doing the similar kind of street driving. I lean on it when the opportunity allows, but my tach spends about 99.95% between 2,500~3,200 rpm. it seems you're talking about a single startup, then beating the **** out of the engine on a road course (or semi-oval speedway) where oil temps might exceed 250° F, then draining it out of the pan.... or street driving in the sub-tropics of Queensland/New South Wales.
even so, if you read their white papers, clearly,
Mobil would like to challenge you to dyno testing with your 20w50 oil vs their 0w50 Racing oil !!!
still, if i'm driving in the warm weather, I'm just as happy running the less-expensive, 15w50 oil or heavier mix. if I was getting in my car and driving from Boston to San Diego in the dead of winter with another driver, i'd run 20w50. I've been running a mix of M1 15w50 and V-twin the last couple of years because it's so easy to find at my auto parts store and Walmart. I figured it wouldn't hurt to mix it in. turns out the stuff is just peachy with the viscosity and zinc.
3 years ago, I switched from 0w40 to 0w50 for the winter after running 0w40 the 3 previous winters (I run the thin stuff about 7 months, and the thick stuff the other 5).
I never got noisy valves running 0w40 with what 5, 6 years ago, was still a low-mile engine, but there's a chance my engine would run a bit quieter in the summer using the thick stuff. but in cold, there's no comparison. the engine sounds better with 0w50 from startup going forward than any other oil I've tried. and then the stuff pegs my oil needle after warmup...
winter in the US and Europe:
I don't know if you've been here, but getting in your car on a coldish or seriously cold, late-fall morning, and starting it up with 15w50 sitting in the pan is a noticeably different experience than it is during the summer or in New South Wales !!
if you live in any northern state, it's not unusual to see mornings dip into the low 10°s F as early as mid-November–even in the northern burbs of NYC/North Jersey/Hudson valley. so we're talking about a lot of drivers that post on the forums.
i'll just relate my own personal experience:
it's the 18th of October, and it's 24 degrees outside... I sit my *** down on one of my frozen leather Sparco's, and douse with windshield with wiper fluid as i ready to to crank her over... every few nights during the fall, i put the battery on the slow charger, and last night I did the same. (once it starts getting really cold, some of us will connect the trickle charger almost every night. there's nothing better to start a winter's days driving than with a fully charge battery)....
once the temperatures go just a bit below freezing, if you've left your 15w or 20w oil in the pan, you'll really notice the difference !! when I first got my 968, the previous owner had run 5w40 synthetic for 12 years in the southern end of coastal North Carolina and a few years in Florida, but had recently changed to 15w50 at the suggestion of his after warranty indy tech. she never saw much cold weather.... as soon as I got her home to Boston, on the first cold startup, the thing let out this moan and barely cranked over. it was just horrid. I brought it to Jerry Pelegrino (our local Porsche god and factory rep) and he put the 0w40 *(memo from Porsche).... I never experienced another problem. except on one occasion a couple of years later when I left the summer oil in until just before leaving for Florida.
my real world experience is more like the 3.0 engine being the automotive equivalent of a hibernating bear. i'm sure it's not the battery, but the combination of the heavy crankshaft and rotating assembly....... when I replaced the battery a year after picking up the car, I still had the thing cranking over with a lot of duress when I left that thick oil in too late into the fall season..... the 72 month, OEM Interstate battery was freshly installed, and I got the same groaning at startup. very slow to turn over, and i'd switch to the 0w40, and the problem was gone.
try an experiment. put that awesome 20w50 Redline in your freezer with a thermometer stuck right in the oil. when it reaches 27~28 degrees, pull it out and try pouring some of it into your crankcase.
you'll see why (at least my engine) sounds like a dead battery with molasses. and my '87 944 was exactly the same..... I fully understand that your ultra-thick 15w50 or 20w50 Redline will stick to all the metal, but I've logged at least 50 k miles running the 0w40 before switching to the 0w50 oil and I still can't get my engine to burn very much oil.... and i'm at 185 k.
od.
.
it's odd that he 0w50 is becoming a popular oil with the LSx crowd who're experiencing good results tracking this oil. it's also the same grade many crews are running in ALMS.... (mentioning it cuz i'm paying my engine shop on the 4th of September for my short-stroke LS7 monster, and this is probably the oil i'll run after break-in).... hopefully, the 3.0 will be sitting in Rogue Ant's shop by early next spring, and he should be able to offer a good report on the wear of the variocam's internals... somewhat scary that an oil could ever have a viscosity range that puts you in the safe zone for a Detroit v8 and also a 944T..... however, if you read the late Porsche lubricant update release (pdf file below), it would seem that Porsche is even more comfortable with the 0w oils than even most of us are....
but I was talking about a winter oil safe for the cold startups and street driving....
*(Porsche also released in that update that they're now recommending only hydrocracked or synthetic oils)... as i read the memo, I got the impression they're fully on board with the cold startup flow of the 0w oils vs film higher strength offered by the ultra-thick stuff. still, i'm not sure how they got here, in the context of the soft engine bearings in the older engines.
I learned about premature wear and the importance of running a 50 weight oil from reading your posts the last few years. and I appreciate that you've been reading mine. it's really lopsided because you work on the cars, and see the stuff coming out of the engines, and all I do is drive.... with that being said, I ran my 3.0 so hard for so long.... so much near the redline with the 0w40, if there was any chance of my engine grenading, I would think it would have done so already.... It would be epic to see one of your clients run 0w50 for 120 k miles or simply race it, and then have you tear it down and report your findings.
still, i'm not sure we're talking about the same kind of driving. my posts refer to normal and spirited street driving only. and it's here that i'm all about suggesting 0w50 or 5w50 (for anyone new to the forums) for the winter oil change....
I'm doing the similar kind of street driving. I lean on it when the opportunity allows, but my tach spends about 99.95% between 2,500~3,200 rpm. it seems you're talking about a single startup, then beating the **** out of the engine on a road course (or semi-oval speedway) where oil temps might exceed 250° F, then draining it out of the pan.... or street driving in the sub-tropics of Queensland/New South Wales.
even so, if you read their white papers, clearly,
Mobil would like to challenge you to dyno testing with your 20w50 oil vs their 0w50 Racing oil !!!
still, if i'm driving in the warm weather, I'm just as happy running the less-expensive, 15w50 oil or heavier mix. if I was getting in my car and driving from Boston to San Diego in the dead of winter with another driver, i'd run 20w50. I've been running a mix of M1 15w50 and V-twin the last couple of years because it's so easy to find at my auto parts store and Walmart. I figured it wouldn't hurt to mix it in. turns out the stuff is just peachy with the viscosity and zinc.
3 years ago, I switched from 0w40 to 0w50 for the winter after running 0w40 the 3 previous winters (I run the thin stuff about 7 months, and the thick stuff the other 5).
I never got noisy valves running 0w40 with what 5, 6 years ago, was still a low-mile engine, but there's a chance my engine would run a bit quieter in the summer using the thick stuff. but in cold, there's no comparison. the engine sounds better with 0w50 from startup going forward than any other oil I've tried. and then the stuff pegs my oil needle after warmup...
winter in the US and Europe:
I don't know if you've been here, but getting in your car on a coldish or seriously cold, late-fall morning, and starting it up with 15w50 sitting in the pan is a noticeably different experience than it is during the summer or in New South Wales !!
if you live in any northern state, it's not unusual to see mornings dip into the low 10°s F as early as mid-November–even in the northern burbs of NYC/North Jersey/Hudson valley. so we're talking about a lot of drivers that post on the forums.
i'll just relate my own personal experience:
it's the 18th of October, and it's 24 degrees outside... I sit my *** down on one of my frozen leather Sparco's, and douse with windshield with wiper fluid as i ready to to crank her over... every few nights during the fall, i put the battery on the slow charger, and last night I did the same. (once it starts getting really cold, some of us will connect the trickle charger almost every night. there's nothing better to start a winter's days driving than with a fully charge battery)....
once the temperatures go just a bit below freezing, if you've left your 15w or 20w oil in the pan, you'll really notice the difference !! when I first got my 968, the previous owner had run 5w40 synthetic for 12 years in the southern end of coastal North Carolina and a few years in Florida, but had recently changed to 15w50 at the suggestion of his after warranty indy tech. she never saw much cold weather.... as soon as I got her home to Boston, on the first cold startup, the thing let out this moan and barely cranked over. it was just horrid. I brought it to Jerry Pelegrino (our local Porsche god and factory rep) and he put the 0w40 *(memo from Porsche).... I never experienced another problem. except on one occasion a couple of years later when I left the summer oil in until just before leaving for Florida.
my real world experience is more like the 3.0 engine being the automotive equivalent of a hibernating bear. i'm sure it's not the battery, but the combination of the heavy crankshaft and rotating assembly....... when I replaced the battery a year after picking up the car, I still had the thing cranking over with a lot of duress when I left that thick oil in too late into the fall season..... the 72 month, OEM Interstate battery was freshly installed, and I got the same groaning at startup. very slow to turn over, and i'd switch to the 0w40, and the problem was gone.
try an experiment. put that awesome 20w50 Redline in your freezer with a thermometer stuck right in the oil. when it reaches 27~28 degrees, pull it out and try pouring some of it into your crankcase.
you'll see why (at least my engine) sounds like a dead battery with molasses. and my '87 944 was exactly the same..... I fully understand that your ultra-thick 15w50 or 20w50 Redline will stick to all the metal, but I've logged at least 50 k miles running the 0w40 before switching to the 0w50 oil and I still can't get my engine to burn very much oil.... and i'm at 185 k.
od.
.
Last edited by odurandina; 08-29-2013 at 05:52 PM.
08-29-2013, 04:31 PM
#81
Rennlist Member
On a warm day of "spirited" street driving many a 951 has been claimed by the no 2 failure. Do a detailed search. I have studied trends related to the no 2 failure and there is indeed a correlation to the oil weight (and redline rpm). My car is primarily a street car and unless I move to the North Pole I am going to listen to JET951. In my view the no 2 failure is not fully understood and I have seen cars rev to 7000 rpm with thin oil and survive. I believe there are many factors that contribute to the failure that may include things like oil cavitation and crank max run-out. It has a statistical nature. Just because one guy got away with using 0-40W oil for 200K with no issues does not make it a good idea when we have so much more data with respect to history.
08-29-2013, 08:38 PM
#83
Rennlist Member
I’d be careful following OD’s advice. Apart from having copious shares in Exxon, his blind faith knee jerk reaction in every oil thread by cutting and pasting Mobil jargon is virtually bordering on Religious fervour. Notwithstanding the fact that nobody is actually advocating using an oil that is too thick for the climate, however using the correct weight oil that provides sufficient film strength is paramount in engine protection. Yet again….where are all these recorded motors with premature engine wear or total failures when we were all running 20w/50 back in the day??? This would have been as big and public an issue that the IMS bearing failure is now…but nothing except the sound of crickets chirping when trying to listen out for that class action from the 80’s – 90’s.
By going off the link to the Ferrari chat forum, that gentleman would have us using “as thin an oil as possible”. Therefore why aren’t we all using 0w/30 or lower OD? To link a Porsche approved oils list is also irrelevant. As if they are even relating to our types of motors. Our cars are held in the same regard as the poor demented cousin at a wedding. They really just don’t consider us at all.
Having said all that, why does OD even bother with these oil threads when his other passion is V8 motors and slagging the Porsche i4 motor ad infinitum??
By going off the link to the Ferrari chat forum, that gentleman would have us using “as thin an oil as possible”. Therefore why aren’t we all using 0w/30 or lower OD? To link a Porsche approved oils list is also irrelevant. As if they are even relating to our types of motors. Our cars are held in the same regard as the poor demented cousin at a wedding. They really just don’t consider us at all.
Having said all that, why does OD even bother with these oil threads when his other passion is V8 motors and slagging the Porsche i4 motor ad infinitum??
08-29-2013, 09:23 PM
#84
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nah,
that Ferrari chat post was just a cut and paste of Bob the Oil Guy.
so, technically, all I posted was a cut and paste of a cut and paste.
I fully agree. it's probably closer to a 5w47~48 weight oil. but for the marketing.....
whether true or not, Mobil wants would say it behaves more like a 50 weight via the heavy friction modifier additives.
just the same, Redline 15w50 runs a bit on the high side (thus you see such a minor difference between their 15w50 and their 20w50).... and M1 15w50 runs about in the middle.
that Ferrari chat post was just a cut and paste of Bob the Oil Guy.
so, technically, all I posted was a cut and paste of a cut and paste.
I fully agree. it's probably closer to a 5w47~48 weight oil. but for the marketing.....
whether true or not, Mobil wants would say it behaves more like a 50 weight via the heavy friction modifier additives.
just the same, Redline 15w50 runs a bit on the high side (thus you see such a minor difference between their 15w50 and their 20w50).... and M1 15w50 runs about in the middle.
08-29-2013, 11:49 PM
#85
Rennlist Member
B.T.O.G. write as if they're sponsored by Mobil from what I've seen.
08-29-2013, 11:52 PM
#86
Drifting
The 17.2 number at 212 F shows that it does not act like a 20w-50 when hot ( hence the number ) so it just shows all the modern Vii's ( viscosity index improver's) just can not hack it
Its a 0W-45 at best & it will have low oil pressure when the oil temp( core temp ) is high ( 100 deg cel + oil temp) in a last century Porsche
Its more suitable for a this century Porsche ( maybe ? )
Its a 0W-45 at best & it will have low oil pressure when the oil temp( core temp ) is high ( 100 deg cel + oil temp) in a last century Porsche
Its more suitable for a this century Porsche ( maybe ? )
08-30-2013, 01:37 AM
#87
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However, that combo will do just fine!
There are certainly others, but that will work great. You might consider adding a bottle of ZDDPlus. You can get that from Lindsey Racing and I'm sure lots of other places.
The above has been my formula for years. I've had the head off a few times for other things and the cylinders look great. I live in hot humid weather, so I run 20W50 all year round, with one bottle of ZDDPlus and a 964 oil filter, because it's just easier to get on and off. I live in Florida.
06-08-2014, 01:12 PM
#88
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OK, I have to admit that I did not make it past the second page and went with the 20w-50. This was the first oil change since I've started to drive the gold car. I noticed that the oil drain plug had a magnet built into the plug... Is this normal for a 86 951?
