Exhaust sealing rings - remove or re-use?
05-15-2012, 01:16 PM
#1
Pro
Thread Starter
Exhaust sealing rings - remove or re-use?
Just looking at all the various issues in putting the head and other bits back together, and I'm wondering re. the exhaust sealing rings (where the manifolds join the rest of the exhaust system)...
• Can I just re-use the existing rings, which seem pretty firmly stuck in the exhaust bits still in the car? (see pic) (I've cleaned up both mating faces with a wire brush - looks as if either some kind of hard setting sealing compound was applied last time this was apart, or scale-like carbonate deposits had built up... probably the former)
• If I need to replace them, what's the best way to get them out? There's not a lot of room to work down there, and they seem pretty happy where they are.
• Seriously: £20 (c $30+ USD) for one metal ring? Tell me there's a good OEM/equivalent I can get instead...
• Can I just re-use the existing rings, which seem pretty firmly stuck in the exhaust bits still in the car? (see pic) (I've cleaned up both mating faces with a wire brush - looks as if either some kind of hard setting sealing compound was applied last time this was apart, or scale-like carbonate deposits had built up... probably the former)
• If I need to replace them, what's the best way to get them out? There's not a lot of room to work down there, and they seem pretty happy where they are.
• Seriously: £20 (c $30+ USD) for one metal ring? Tell me there's a good OEM/equivalent I can get instead...
Last edited by zogster; 01-25-2015 at 02:10 PM.
05-15-2012, 01:51 PM
#2
Instructor
I spoke with Dave Lindsey of Lindsey racing who said you could reuse them which I did. I did replace all the others however. If you want to take them out the best way I found was with a small screw driver and wd40. Try and get them to spin first then pry them out. Lindsey racing does sell new rings and if I remember they are much less that $18.
05-15-2012, 01:55 PM
#3
Pro
Thread Starter
Thanks - I'll probably re-use them in that case, as much because it's easier as because it's cheaper... if I get the whole head gasket set then I'll end up with two of the rings anyway.
05-15-2012, 02:06 PM
#4
Nordschleife Master
Ask yourself if you want to tollerate an exhaust leak there...
You can also use copper 3 bolt flat seals (much like a collector flange seal) as either an alternative to, or supplimental to the crush rings.. I preffer to use new crush rings each time they are oppened up, as the cost offsets the level of pain an exhaust leak can cause!
I have done exhaust work on 5 cars in teh last month, each using NEW rings!
Screwdriver, hit with hammer will bury itself into the ring, then can be used to pry it out of its groove! 80% of the time it works every time!
You can also use copper 3 bolt flat seals (much like a collector flange seal) as either an alternative to, or supplimental to the crush rings.. I preffer to use new crush rings each time they are oppened up, as the cost offsets the level of pain an exhaust leak can cause!
I have done exhaust work on 5 cars in teh last month, each using NEW rings!
Screwdriver, hit with hammer will bury itself into the ring, then can be used to pry it out of its groove! 80% of the time it works every time!
05-15-2012, 02:34 PM
#6
Pro
Thread Starter
Well I don't want a leak, but if the chance is low enough I might take a chance on it...
Where's a good source for "copper 3 bolt flat seals", and what else might they be called? (I'm in the UK, btw). Had a quick look around the interwebs and couldn't find anything that fitted the bill.
Or can I maybe improvise something from, say, 0.5mm thick copper sheet?
Where's a good source for "copper 3 bolt flat seals", and what else might they be called? (I'm in the UK, btw). Had a quick look around the interwebs and couldn't find anything that fitted the bill.
Or can I maybe improvise something from, say, 0.5mm thick copper sheet?
Last edited by zogster; 05-15-2012 at 02:46 PM. Reason: Added last para
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05-15-2012, 04:12 PM
#8
Pro
Thread Starter
I'm pretty sure they weren't leaking before, and didn't see any signs as per your pic - but now that it's all come apart and has to go back together again...
Leaning towards replacing 'em now.
Leaning towards replacing 'em now.
05-15-2012, 04:34 PM
#9
Nordschleife Master
Well I don't want a leak, but if the chance is low enough I might take a chance on it...
Where's a good source for "copper 3 bolt flat seals", and what else might they be called? (I'm in the UK, btw). Had a quick look around the interwebs and couldn't find anything that fitted the bill.
Or can I maybe improvise something from, say, 0.5mm thick copper sheet?
Where's a good source for "copper 3 bolt flat seals", and what else might they be called? (I'm in the UK, btw). Had a quick look around the interwebs and couldn't find anything that fitted the bill.
Or can I maybe improvise something from, say, 0.5mm thick copper sheet?
http://broadfootracing.com/944___968_exhaust.htm
Improvised should also work just fine!
05-15-2012, 04:41 PM
#10
Burning Brakes
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The compound you are seeing may have been used just to keep the ring in place during installation. I know I used a couple dabs of glue to keep the downpipe gasket in place during installation. I also use the OEM crush rings each time I remove the exhaust and I typically get them from Pelican or Paragon. Some for $18 and some for $16, if memory serves me correctly.
05-15-2012, 05:24 PM
#11
Pro
Thread Starter
Has anyone used anything like Wurth 250 exhaust sealant?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kart-Wurth...item519eba39c6
Every other Wurth product I've tried has been superb, but I see this is only supposed to be good up to 300°C, which sounds a bit low for exhaust bits close to the engine.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Kart-Wurth...item519eba39c6
Every other Wurth product I've tried has been superb, but I see this is only supposed to be good up to 300°C, which sounds a bit low for exhaust bits close to the engine.
05-16-2012, 09:16 AM
#12
Drifting
That's not made specifically for exhaust sealing - it's just a sealing compound. It will quickly fail on the exhaust systems of our cars.
Wurth does make an exhaust assembly paste: http://store.blackforestindustries.com/wuexpa.html
I've used it. Messy, but it does seal very well. The downside is once it's been heat cured, it has to be mechanically removed. I wouldn't use it on flanges that have a proper sealing ring available.
Replace the crush rings. They're not that expensive and it's worth it not to have exhaust leaks. Regular sheet copper won't seal correctly. It needs to be dead soft (annealed) copper. The problem with dead soft copper and aluminum is it has a tendency to blow out under heat and pressure. You'd be better off getting a roll of dead soft copper wire and make your own crush rings.
Wurth does make an exhaust assembly paste: http://store.blackforestindustries.com/wuexpa.html
I've used it. Messy, but it does seal very well. The downside is once it's been heat cured, it has to be mechanically removed. I wouldn't use it on flanges that have a proper sealing ring available.
Replace the crush rings. They're not that expensive and it's worth it not to have exhaust leaks. Regular sheet copper won't seal correctly. It needs to be dead soft (annealed) copper. The problem with dead soft copper and aluminum is it has a tendency to blow out under heat and pressure. You'd be better off getting a roll of dead soft copper wire and make your own crush rings.
05-16-2012, 09:52 AM
#13
Rennlist Member
I've been taking my exhaust apart and I seem to be missing crush rings everywhere. Someone relied on some orange colored sealant and it's plastered all over everything. I ordered all new rings and the copper gaskets, bolts, etc. I'm sick of smelling exhaust fumes 
But the one or two crush rings I do have seem firmly embedded in place. I've been whacking and prying at them and they wont budge. I've been scraping the rust around the sides with a big pick.
Which angle do you hit them with the hammer/screwdriver? From the top to make a groove, or from the side? Or at an angle that will sort of get the ring to spin? I've been avoiding being too rough cause I haven't wanted to ruin the grooves.
But the one or two crush rings I do have seem firmly embedded in place. I've been whacking and prying at them and they wont budge. I've been scraping the rust around the sides with a big pick.
Which angle do you hit them with the hammer/screwdriver? From the top to make a groove, or from the side? Or at an angle that will sort of get the ring to spin? I've been avoiding being too rough cause I haven't wanted to ruin the grooves.
05-16-2012, 10:00 AM
#14
Nordschleife Master
I've been taking my exhaust apart and I seem to be missing crush rings everywhere. Someone relied on some orange colored sealant and it's plastered all over everything. I ordered all new rings and the copper gaskets, bolts, etc. I'm sick of smelling exhaust fumes
But the one or two crush rings I do have seem firmly embedded in place. I've been whacking and prying at them and they wont budge. I've been scraping the rust around the sides with a big pick.
Which angle do you hit them with the hammer/screwdriver? From the top to make a groove, or from the side? Or at an angle that will sort of get the ring to spin? I've been avoiding being too rough cause I haven't wanted to ruin the grooves.
But the one or two crush rings I do have seem firmly embedded in place. I've been whacking and prying at them and they wont budge. I've been scraping the rust around the sides with a big pick.
Which angle do you hit them with the hammer/screwdriver? From the top to make a groove, or from the side? Or at an angle that will sort of get the ring to spin? I've been avoiding being too rough cause I haven't wanted to ruin the grooves.
Flange = cast iron that... well... doesnt crush...
I have used multiple angles, depending on situation... to me it sounds like you need more cowbell.... give the grooves a little bit of the old penetrating oil (I like PB blaster, but WD40, liquid wrench, or really any other solvent based oil spray will work just fine)... let em soak for a minute or two, and resume beating the hell out of the rings! They WILL pop out, then you can take a flat tip screwdriver and clean out the grooves a bit before dropping in your new rings!
05-16-2012, 11:42 AM
#15
Pro
Thread Starter
I'm just so reluctant to shell out £50 for two simple metal rings... I know it seems a bit cheap, but I guess I'm a bit cheap. And also a bit more hard up than I'd like right now.
I like your DIY crush ring idea Curt - though I guess I need to solder or weld the ends together to make a proper ring... can't just cut a piece to length and pop it in the groove as there'll be a gap for those pesky exhaust gasses.
But as the Wurth paste sounds like it works, I might just do that as it'll be easier. That's probably what the PO applied here - I used a wire brush attachement on an electric drill to clean it off the mating face on the manifold.
I like your DIY crush ring idea Curt - though I guess I need to solder or weld the ends together to make a proper ring... can't just cut a piece to length and pop it in the groove as there'll be a gap for those pesky exhaust gasses.
But as the Wurth paste sounds like it works, I might just do that as it'll be easier. That's probably what the PO applied here - I used a wire brush attachement on an electric drill to clean it off the mating face on the manifold.