p5th

Before I start let me say the guys at IMA are good people. Car was sent on flatbed to shop. I did not think driving it up to shop would've been good being car was coming from winter storage.Met with Ivan and Dan to map out plan for car.The plan was to do ALL maint. work and to get her ready for mods.After test driving car(IMA) was told needed head work.During this time they noticed that the pistons looked good and they asked if they were new.I said no,all I know about the car is from my ownership on (I took "big bill") from dealer so they could see what I had done before. Now they did head work,belts,changed all fluids,installed M-tune,K27/6,checked all grounds,O-ringed headcomplete suspension,brakes,ebc,boost gauge,white gauges,breather tank. All I know is they put it on dyno,heard a noise,drained oil from pan. Don't know what happened.They said they will let me know in a couple of days. I dont know what to say.Dan said they didn't see a need to check bottom end,I guess the look of pistons,I dont know.Im a little confused. They said it was making 263 on dyno.I was expecting at least 275-290 at 15psi with K27/6. Well all I know is I paid $8,000 to turn my car into a paper weight.

ltdan12a

Hey Gang, Little bit of background about what we did to the car.

The car arrived, and Pernell had a wish-list of what he wanted done. Regarding the engine, these included:

Rebuild the head
O-ring
upgraded head studs
Widefire gasket
replace turbo
exhaust
MAF conversion from Rogue
install electronic boost controller

Before the head was taken off, a cylinder leakdown and compression check were done. Oncce the head was off, the top of the block was checked, and a visual inspection was done of the pistons and cylinders. After all the new parts were installed, the car was driven for approx. 20 miles on 10-12psi to check for any issues. The car was quiet, and although it was running rich, had smooth power and no issues. After a Test drive with Pernell, the oil was changed, and then loaded on the dyno(Pernell wanted HP numbers, and it was the easiest way to adjust the boost controller we installed).

The dyno session started fine. We began our pulls at 12psi, shutting down at approx. 6200rpm. After each pull, we increased the boost controller by 10%(approx. .8psi). During the pulls, Oil pressure, exhaust temps, and a/f ratio were monitored closely. The only issue we were experiencing was that it was still running very rich(10.5-12:1 ratio). On our sixth pull, everything went smoothly, but when it returned to idle, a chirping noise was heard from inside the engine. Even though it was idling perfectly, we knew something wasn't right. The car was shut down, unloaded form the dyno, and pushed on a lift.
When we drained the oil, we discovered bearing material suspended in it. Immediately, I called Pernell, informed him, and asked him to come down so we could discuss options.

dp951

Sorry to hear about your engine,
The problem with these cars as most new owners or owner in genreal tend to place more attention on bolt on mods instead of paying attention to the internals ( the heart of any motor). You buy a car that most of its life is unknow and , the put more stess on an unknow bottom end, or head gasket in most cases then wonder why it broke. The basics is the key to a well performing and long living engine.

Ive taken apart many of the 2.5s and 3.0 any they all seem to wear the same, thus before any build or performance mod I take the pan down and atleast inspect what my base line is. This save's allot money latter on .

But don't dispair the bearing repalcement or even a basic rebuild is not a big deal.


Question did you also oring the block? and why a K27 #26 ? small hot housing with large cold side.

I do under stand that you' re thinking spool up time .. but in the higher rpm range what to you expect?

Bri Bro

The new MAF running rich would explain the lower than expect Dyno numbers. With it that rich, one would doubt knock was happening. It would be interesting to hear what you find was the cause of the metal in the oil.

p5th

DP951,I'm not that kind of guy man. Before I ever drove car I rookie to dealership,had maintenance done. Look at "My big bill". Two years later I put in shop and said do all maintenance before we start. I didn't just show up with a bunch of parts and say "Put these on". The plan was to make sure engine was ready for mods. I wanted it gone over,a/c,timing belts,water pump,grounds,fuel system,etc.... We don't know what damage was done. The guys are gonna work w/me on all of this,so I'll know more later. I wasn't trying for some 21psi car! K27/6 is mild,this is street car. Was shooting for 300hp. I'd be fine with 275-280-290,don't need 350hp and all that. I'm sure one day she will live again.

User 52121

Yeah and a pretty wide range too? 10.5-12? That's kind of wide... I assume we're just missing some details behind this.

Not knowing how well the car was maintained previously (or the mileage - how many miles are on it?), it's entirely possible that you had a bearing that was on the verge of failure. Maybe the previous owner ran it low on oil once or twice, or ran it hard at the track and starved it briefly. Throw some extra power at it, and it was enough to finally kill it. I don't recall specifics of the "big bill" - did that include bottom end bearings?

There really is no way to predict if a rod bearing will let go, when you have an unknown history. These cars don't seem to take well to being run hard and low on oil without spitting out the #2 bearing. A previous owner could have cut the wedge in the tree - you just were the one who yelled, "TIMBER!"

Unfortunate but, well, what can you do?

I'd say - you've come this far. A non-running car is not going to be worth much, despite all the new mods you just put on it. Might as well just bite the bullet, put new bearings in the bottom end, and have some fun with it.

ltdan12a

Yup, we're not sure yet either... The MAF conversion included 800 lb/hour injectors, and we hadn't even gotten a chance to play with different plug heat ranges or anything before it went south... If the motor is salvageable, there is definitely plenty more power there.

Rogue_Ant

That is a pretty normal range for a turbo car under boost, on pump gas - depending on how much boost and what RPM...

Can you post a Dyno plot w/ AFR & boost?

Randy V

Time to call Lart!

lart951

12:1 A/F ratio still too lean for a turbo charge 951 under boost at high rpms , that's common knowledge right? we had discussed that on the board back to 2004. If the car was leaned out further than 12:5 the engine could have been damaged by detonation.

Bri Bro

With out the AFR graph on the dyno sheet we don't know were the AFR was at higher RPM. Could be it started at 12 and ended at 10.5, how knows. Want to be in the mid to high 11s at higher RPMs..10s start pulling down the HP numbers.

p5th

I'll see if Dan can post read outs I don't have them.

carlege

can you tell us when the last time the rod bearings were replaced. (if the 8k service sheet is up i cant see it) if it had never been done then thats where you made your mistake. Adding HP to old bearings is a bad combo

lart951

how do you defined old bearings? 90k , 140k or 170k miles?

carlege

Original or unknown replacement time. We also dont know what bar's at temp he was at or the type / weight of oil used.

i was told 100k- 120k is when you should start considering it.

also is 6 pulls alot of pulls ?