fast951

John, I'm not sure how you can come on a public forum and make such erroneous statements. For now, I'm going to assume that you simply forgotten what took place, as what you describe is not correct.
The facts are:
- Feb 07, you contacted me to inform me that you are purchasing a used WS. Making you the 3rd owner of the WS system, as you did not purchase it from the original owner. I even warned you that purchasing used electronics can be iffy, so be careful.
- Once you installed the WS system, you could not get it to work. And you requested assistance.
- I did provide you support and assistance for FREE (via email and phone calls). You even tanked me for it in your email to me dating 03/04/07. In the same email, you had a few questions regarding the installation document, which I replied to. So you did have instructions and I did assist you.
- After many failed attempts, you sent me the WS box to test. Which I spent a few hours testing, even installed on my personal car. It tested fine!
I did charge you a symbolic charge for the test procedure. You were charged less than a 1/4 of the time I spent.. Apparently you thought hours of my time should be free!
- On 4/12/07 I did send you a copy of the WS installation instructions FOR FREE.

So based on my calculation, I probably spent multiple hours assisting you and providing Free support for a product you purchased 3rd hand.

Installation is out of my control, so is the condition of used parts. Based on the data you gave me, I concluded that either the installation was incorrect, a signal was questionable or the wiring harness was questionable. As I recall you became agitated and a bit abrasive, you reminded me that you owned a Stereo shop and you do wiring all of the time. You decided you want to sell the WS system as you could not get it to work on your car.. I even sent you a buyer, someone who wanted a spare WS as he was running one already on his race car.

I did support you, I'm not sure why you expected additional FREE support, when you were entitled for none in the first place.
I do offer free support all of the time, not out of requirements, simply to help out. Many Rennlisters know this, and there are many posts (use the search).. However it appears that when someone gives freely, people expect more and more to a point they think it's a obligation. And when the free giving stops, the person who gave is all of the sudden a A.H. for not continuing to give freely.... I'm sure many been there...

Hope the above facts jogged your memory. If you have any doubts, with your permission, I can post the emails...

Jeremy Himsel

I always find these threads amusing, particularly when people are pinching pennies. Excluding the cost of the car, I've dumped in the range of 50K into my car so when I want an upgrade, I typically don't pay too much attention to price. Particularly when purchasing an item that can destroy a motor with one wrong keystroke.

I have not bought Rogue's kit but I have seen it and did some of the wiring. It seems to be well put together and the components are of good quality. That being said, I'm not a big fan of the dme soldering on the older DME's but that's a pretty minor pet peeve of mine (because I suck at soldering). From what I can tell the car with the kit ran well and made great power. I believe the engine builder was excellent though. I would consider using the Rogue kit in the future on a "typical" build or one where pricing was a significant consideration (like on my father's 951).

I am one of the "original" Vitesse guys and over the last 10 years have bought or installed about a dozen of the Vitesse Maf's or chips and I have not had a single one run poorly out of the box. None of them REQUIRED a piggy back tune. The first one I installed is still running great. There's virtually no vendors out there right now with that type of history and product performance. I believe you will find it difficult to find a single Vitesse original product purchaser that will disagree with me.

One of the factors I've used is who has the direct hands-on experience with what I'm trying to accomplish? I've found that John's vast experience owning and racing these cars with a myriad of engine/turbo combinations makes me confident that he can reference a real world application (or failure) and apply that experience to what I need. That's what i pay for. I'm not sure Rogue has the same level of experience yet, but I could be wrong. For me I'll gladly spend a few extra bucks for that confidence but this isn't appropriate for everyone. I've never had an issue with john supporting second hand products but I wouldn't expect him to, particularly from people who've never bought anything from him. I'm a bit surprised by JBrown's experience though.

The second thing I get concerned with it "fly by night" tuners. Not saying that Rogue is or will be one, but for me it is a consideration. Those of you that know me can reference my often skeptical (being nice here) questioning of Danno, Russell, the pro-flow MAF, and a handful of other long-haul great guy "tuners" who had the greatest products but are no longer around. I've heard plenty of claims of new products that never come to fruition or experience significant failure when they do. Many of these products are not new but a piggyback to Vitesse’s with a lower price point. I've seen even more people jump on these product’s band-wagon not because they’ve used them or have intricate information about them but because they're anti-Vitesse products and pricing, even though they've never bought a single item. I can easily name a dozen of these guys. I find that Vitesse has run his own race for 10 years and hopefully Rogue continues to do the same.

For the OP of this thread, before deciding, figure out how complex or simple your combination is, consider the experience level of the vendor, weigh the pros and cons of each system, determine where you may want to make changes in the future and how flexible the system is, factor in the feedback you get from people who've actually used the products, and select the product within your price point. I don't think you can go wrong selecting either of the two.

One thing I've noticed since the e-mail list days, is this forum recycles experts every couple of years with information that is mostly regurgitated from others. Those of us that have been around for a while kind of laugh and roll our eyes when the new to me owner of a 951 takes the board by storm and schools the rest of us. I find that many of us geezers don’t post much these days and have somewhat resorted back to the e-mail days as that's where I have most of my technical discussions with others. It's so much easier being able to filter out the experts.

dillon410021

both systems are good. I bought a vitesse racing smt6 piggyback used and John was able to help me diagnose my connection problems. As far as the directions, they were on the disk that came with the smt-6. I have nothing against either company. Both have their perks and I wouldn't mind having either of them.

toddk911

23psi on pump?

fast951

As far as charging for documentation and software, this applies to the PB. The software is not free, it costs us $. The time I spent figuring out the in/out to perfect the installation and to document took many hours if not days. Many purchased a PB off eBay or elsewhere on the Internet, a product that was not purchased from Vitesse in the first place, and wanted free instructions. So the logical thing was to put a $ amount on the instructions as we cannot police the source of the Piggyback.

Interesting enough, there are a certain listers who sold components as Vitesse components when they were not. Some people wanted support to components that were not originally Vitesse components. Some even distributed Copyright material without our permission.
If you think about it, a few bad apples ruin it for everyone else!

As far as a support policy, our MAIN priority are those who purchase directly from us. However, we spend countless hours supporting others as well. The support policy does get abused, and often requires alteration.

People who ever owned or ever ran a business surely have a clear idea. Others, just think that this is your "hobby", while it is someone's business. Running a business like a hobby always fails..

As sad as it is, some people here suck the passion of it. Bad enough to have to deal with people trying to pull scams. But having people that we are supposed to share the passion pull crap makes you think twice. In the long run, the 951 community will suffer. Any business catering to the 951 is based on passion much more than financial rewards.

OP - Sorry I did not post technical information on "your" thread, and more sorry you have to deal with this sort of BS.

gpr8er

wow...The OP was just asking for opinion on a maf system and now this thread has deteriorated to a mud throwing contest.

Some people don't understand the issues of running a small business. I run a small business and when a customer calls for help it comes down to this. Is the product still under warranty? If no then I have a general idea of the problem and if they want a diagnosis and estimate for repair/replacement then there is a fee. Time is money in a small business, you can't afford to give away your time for free it takes you away from other potential customers. John really has no responsibility for helping with issues beyond the original buyer. John has given his time for free well beyond what I would have in similar situations in my business.

p5th

I did not buy John's product,but he answered every email/call I made. John,you don't need to explain anything to anyone. Look, we have 2 great companies making great products,PERIOD! Buy one or buy the other, both ways I'm sure you will be happy. Stop with the silliness! Let's get back to helping one another, to supporting those who support us. Let's bring back the "Saratoga" or the V1 or another great product. Anything but a long thread about B.S.! I guess folks will compare the size of Maf tubes next.

ilikemy944

I didn't say it was particularly smart... but yes.

Mighty Shilling

I'm throwing in my $0.02 as a happy rogue customer. Had vitesse chips, tried out the A-tune, and was beside myself. Then I upgraded to the M-tune, and holy crap!

fast951

That is fantastic. Now that you mention it, maybe you can clear something up for me.

As I recall you evaluated both AFM chips. Were you not using the incorrect fuel pressure regulator (3.8bar) with the Vitesse AFM chip? While the Vitesse chip requires a 3.0bar FP. So when running 3.8bar (vs. 3.0bar FP) the car will run very rich, which hurts the performance, wouldn't it?
When you compared the dyno results, were you running the incorrect FPR also with the non-Vitesse chip?

When evaluating products to "help" others make a educated decision, and to be considered as a reliable impartial source, it makes sense to disclose all the facts including the running conditions under which the tests were performed. So if you can clear the above, it'll help greatly, TIA

Just my $0.02.

JBrown

John at first you did not want to give me support , you gave me nothing but a hard time because I did not purchased it from you direct. As far as multiple hrs of help. That is a joke I might have had you on the phone a couple of times for maybe a total of 15 mins. Lets be real. At first you did not want to send me the instructions I had to basically talk my case that I just spend thousands of dollars with you. You are right I did get it from a 3rd party, I apologize for that. If you look at the post I am not the only person who has seen this. If a person spent thousands of dollars with me and then bought one of my products 3rd hand from one of my costomers I would have given them all the support they need without the need to bash them about buying 2nd or 3rd hand to buy it from me.. Thats all I have to say about this issue.

fast951

John,

At first you claim I gave you "NO SUPPORT" now your story is changing.
Well, you think only 15 minutes were spent, I know otherwise.

As far as bashing you for buying 2nd or 3rd generation product? When did that happen? Heck, I was never able to keep the WS in stock, so even if you wanted a new one, probably I couldn't sell you one.
I'm not sure how you came to the conclusion that I bashed you for purchasing a used WS.. I even sent you a buyer to buy your used WS, his name is Steve, maybe you recall.. If I wanted to sell a new unit (which I didn't have), why would I send someone to buy a used WS from you. Your comments make no sense, and your story keeps changing!

I may have mentioned this to you already, and of course you deal with the same thing in your business.
One of the reason at times I'm hesitant to "send out instructions", is because there were a few changes in the wiring. Of course if "I just send any document", and there is a error, and something gets fried I'm to blame. This is why it's best to get the instructions that came with the product.

The bottom line is , and I don't care if you admit it or not, you received support, you received the document (FOR FREE). when you were entitled to none. You failed to install and operate the product, and you come here bashing me.

I guess it's either your memory is foggy or you misrepresent facts.

I'm done here as well..

lart951

in before the lock and the ban. This thread should be locked

User 52121

Keep in mind that Rogue has been around for quite a while - offering nothing but FREE advice, with his TunerPro software

http://roguetuning.com/free_944_tuning_tools

I get your point, and it's a legitimate concern for sure for a new vendor on the scene. But Josh and Rogue have been around a lot longer than just the release of his M- and A-Tune product.

OP - sucks this thread went downhill. Obviously some people are pretty passionate. Best of luck to you in whatever you choose. Just be careful to keep yourself in check, weigh all the factors before making a decision based on facts and not sales pitches or pressure. At the end of the day, there's enough knowledge here on RL to get you through whatever you need if either vendor happened to go jump off a cliff.

Jeremy Himsel

I hope no one, including Josh, gets the impression I've included him in the fly by night class. I can usually pick apart 99% of the BS guys and have not encountered that with Josh. He's been here a while, seems pretty technical, and more over I haven't classified as a dousche. I would consider his product for a particular application.