PrerYDoG

I'd also like to point out that I do not feel that "any alternative view is considered to be a 'conspiracy'." Rather far from it actually. What I was referring to was the large stretches (leaps even) of the imagination, the off the wall doomsday theories you were posting, the ones that were so radical that they become hard to take seriously.

BigPorscheGuy39

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I would suggest that you don't put your trust in information based on the number of letters after the authors name.
Eg Einstein flunked school cause he was bored or too busy being a scientist in the back shed </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Actually, the implication of this comment is that Einstein had no letters after his name. In fact, that's false.

1. In early October 1896 he received his school-leaving certificate and shortly thereafter enrolled at the Eidgenössische Polytechnische Schule with the goal of becoming a teacher in Mathematics and Physics. Einstein, being an average student, finished his studies with a diploma degree in July 1900.

This degree would be the equivalent of a B.Sc.

2. In April 1905 Einstein submitted his doctoral thesis "A New Determination of Molecular Dimensions" to the university in Zurich which was accepted in July.

This latter degree (equivalence) would have enabled Einstein to place the letters 'Ph.D.' after his name, had such a designation existed.

In fact, aside from a university setting, it's unfathomable to think of where in the world one would/could ever conceivably attain such background knowledge required to formulate a theory of general relativity.

Kit_Chris

PrerYDoG, a response to your ideas. A reasonable attempt, at least.

The issue of terrorism. You want to elminate Saddam? Fine. Kill him. We do NOT need a war for this, just as we didn't need sanctions to weaken an oppressive regime. Taking down water plants and preventing their reconstruction was inappropriate, inhumane, and disgusting. You justify this brutal act through proper 'military strategies' with reasonable objectives that unfortunately failed. I could agree with this if it lasted a few months, but letting the horror continue over 10 years is simply sick. Again, if we were serious about eliminating Saddam, we'd simply kill him. That's all.

The Northern Alliance. I touched upon the Afghanistan issue in an earlier post. Karzai has next to no control outside Kabul and the Northern Alliance has an extremely brutal and bloody past, just like all other tribes which alternatively ruled in Afghanistan. Stability has not been achieved in the area as tribal conflicts continue. Can we honestly congratulate ourselves for great achievements in Afghanistan? No. We failed. Just as we did in Iraq.

The Constitution. Again repeating myself, preemptive strikes are unconstitutional. So are unilateral actions, which are against international law and therefore, unconstitutional.

We don't need Iraqi oil? American oil reserves are at an all-time low. Venezuela will not be capable of supplying 50% of american oil for long and the Middle East (Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia) has the potential to supply oil cheaply and for a long time. Connecting the dots isn't that hard.

And back to terrorism. If we want to address this issue, we must first determine why terrorism occurs. I can't accept the theory that human beings do it just because they are bad people. I can't believe so many people are willing to give up their lives just to do harm. Rather, perception of injustice, despair, and frustration can make a human being crazy enough to actually plan and execute mass killing. Going in Iraq will only produce more anger within the arab community, and this is not in our interest. We must give arabs a place in the international community. We must give the younger generations of arabs a future and firm belief they are given an opportunity in this world. Once this will be achieved, terrorist organizations will not be able to recruit new members because only highly vulnerable individuals can be lured in such elaborate evil organizations.

Now, please, put your gun down.

Regards,
Chris

ELLSSUU

I'm thinking an Excursion with a supercharger, nitrous, no cats and flowmasters may work very well for my wife to get groceries. Hell, I may just get new tires with every oil change for good measure.

ELLSSUU

Not just any tires, mind you, SuperSwampers!!!!!!

ELLSSUU

<img src="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/excursion" alt=" - " />

Now that's what I'm talking about! How many boxes of disposable Pampers can fit in that thing. Yeah I know, start the flame war on Pampers!

Kit_Chris

ELLSSUU, about women choice, democracy, exports, etc. No one on this planet has the moral credibility to dictate anyones destiny. Judging other cultures based on your own definition of fairness and justice is an exercise in ignorance. The West's way is not the only way. History has repeated itself countless times, change happens naturally from within, in due time. We have plenty of issues to deal with within our own respective countries, we can let other nations decide what's best for themselves. Revolutions have always been vital to the evolution of nations, throughout history.

As for the causes of terrorism, I'm not dishonest enough to look for justifications, but as a potential victim of terrorist attacks, I believe our governments should find the source of the problem, find out why kids give up their lives. Preventing a 'bad guy' to hit you by holding his arms down won't change that he's on a mission to hurt you. Find out the source of anger, deal with it, and the threat will disappear. A war on terrorism is a temporary and superficial solution.

I fully agree with you. Nothing justifies killing innocent people. This includes Iraqis, Rwandans, Palestinians, and so on. I would even include Africans, we know they're dying of malnutrition and do little to help them out. To me, considering our enormous wealth and ability to help out (not by imposing a regime change but by supplying basic humaniterian needs), that's deliberate homicide.

Before we take the liberty to judge other people, whether terrorists or governments, we should look into our own actions. A responsible response to terrorism must include an honest attempt at finding out why hatred is strong enough to feed articulate and widespread terrorist groups.

I'm not saying this to defend terrorism. I'm saying this because I too fear terrorism, but I firmly believe war will not reduce the terrorist threat. In fact, with a war in Iraq, I'll be more concerned than ever before.

And please, cut the Saddam bashing. His case has been heard and unanimously condemned. Now explain to me why Washington maintained diplomatic relations and kept supporting Saddam's regime while he was gassing up Kurds and using chemical weapons in Iran?

Regards,
Chris

Mike B

I'll second moving this to the O/T Lounge...

Kit_Chris

"I'll second moving this to the O/T Lounge..."

What sort of moral authority do you think you have to say this? This is clearly wrong and..

Just kidding! I may be taking this too seriously! Pretty serious stuff though..

Don't you worry. When a debate boils down to some cheap name calling, the end can't be far!

Regards,
Chris

BigPorscheGuy39

"we must first determine why terrorism occurs"

I think that's pretty much correct.

And I hate pampers too! They're disgusting. And the same goes for the jam-eating thumb suckers who inhabit them! They should be put to hard labour!!!

<img border="0" alt="[grrrrrrr]" title="" src="graemlins/cussing.gif" />

ELLSSUU

I vote to let the topic die! Die scum Die! JK

BTW, I don't remember any name calling. Just good discussion.

Now about that Excursion. I'll take mine in Black!

Russ Murphy

A definitely well argued thread. The most interesting aspect to me is that the freedom and liberties (the abilities to use this forum and it's associated technologies, standard of living, etc.) that we now enjoy are directly due to the blood, sweat, and tears of a generation whose values have been picked over and maligned to a great extent in this thread. The maintenance of these liberties is a lot more tenuous than most of us realize. We might want to think about that.

dand86951

Russ, I think you have posted one of the most important things about this thread. America isn't perfect, nothing is, but as long as we have and exercise these basic freedoms, the world will be a better place.

BigPorscheGuy39

Russ' point is well taken: "The most interesting aspect to me is that the freedom and liberties (the abilities to use this forum and it's associated technologies, standard of living, etc.) that we now enjoy are directly due to the blood, sweat, and tears of a generation whose values have been picked over and maligned to a great extent in this thread."

Thing is, when we discuss past warrings, we have this tension that exists: The people who did the fighting died presumably for the freedoms of the citizenry, yet modern interpretations question whether the warring was even 'required' or 'just'.

Thing is, I don't blame soldiers of the past for what they've done, cause they're following the orders of the democracy. The trick is, that soldiers also must follow the order to 'stand down' and not fight, if that is the wish of the Citizenry. In doing so, they're ALSO doing their duty and should be commended for peacefully following that order.

In other words, just cause guys fought in the past doesn't mean that they've got to fight in the future in order to honor the souls of the guys who died years ago.