dmoffitt

am i going to need a REALLLY good dentist?

seriously, thoughts/impressions w/ this?

rolling chassis i'm buying is as follows:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">1986 944 Turbo VIN: All fiberglass or carbon fiber bodywork. Hood, nose, fenders, and bumper cover is Racer’s Group carbon fiber. Doors are from IFC. Rear bumper and ¼ panels are from GT Racing. The ¼ panels accommodate a 14 inch wide rear tire. The stock rear valance is place. Custom lexan rear window with authentic factory 968 TRS wing. All bodywork fits and looks perfect. The silver paint has only a few races on it. The whole front end is covered in 3M vinyl. The interior has all wiring, gauges, etc. No seats are included. A Momo steering wheel with quick release hub is included. The roll cage is a custom Chrome-Moly cage with gussets at key locations. The front suspension consists of JRZ triple adjustable struts, Eibach double springs, KMR camber plates, Fabcar A-arms and 944 Turbo S hubs and spindles. The rear suspension consists of JRZ triple adjustable shocks, Eibach double springs, Kokeln rear suspension assembly, and 944 Turbo S trailing arms. The braking system consists of 993 Turbo calipers, 3.6 Turbo front discs on the front and 993 calipers and 968 M030 discs on the rear. The front brakes have a cooling kit. The master cylinder has been upgraded to improve pedal feel. The 944 Turbo ABS with reset switch is installed. The chassis also has a fire system, dual oil coolers, an intercooler, P/S cooler, boost controller, boost gauge, oil pressure, oil temperature and some other engine related systems. The battery has been relocated to the spare tire well. The kill switch is installed where the battery normally goes. The torque tube is in place. This car weighed in at about 2350lbs with the engine and a 968 trans. Everything on it is first rate and no shortcuts were taken in its construction. What you will need to supply to go racing: Drivetrain Seat Wheels </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">i'm working on (and could use suggestions for) what spring rates to run, it's a street / autoX and some (5 per year?) track instruction... rather overkill, but after my car was hit, i figured, i'll never have a chance (and never want to take that motor out again) so i might as well. i don't mind a somewhat harsh ride, i had 650+lb springs on the Tein HA coilovers my rsx had, wasn't that bad, although rochester's roads are horrible....

CarreraCup03

Dave, You are buying Chris Cervelli's car on ebay. That car is not in any way for the street!

944turbo

dmoffitt

well, neither was my car that it's replacing... the roll cage doesn't bother me, i've already got 2 racing seats to go in, off my car... suspension wise chris is giving me springs that have a lower spring rate, i was already planning to pick up that kokeln rear piece, and even if my car hadn't been a total or hadn't been it, i was going to do the CF / Fiberglass body-panel thing and repaint the car anyway... those are the only real differences i see between it and a normal 951...

the fact that it's missing an interior doesn't bother me. my car was in the process of being stripped, i'm going to re-do it (custom/minimalist) and add a few creature comforts, people really have different ideas of what is necessary in a "street" car. as long as it's street legal (or close to it) i don't really care. harsh spring rates, less comforts like climate control, etc etc. don't really matter to me - my #1 priority is having a car that's fun as hell to drive, will be good for competing, and i plan to turn this into a track-only car (obviously it's purpose) in a few years anyway, in the mean time, I'm going to have fun building/working on it, and turning a few heads

M758

Wow!!!
Chris's Turbo... the #41 monster! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" />

I agree that that is no street car. That was probably the fasted 944 Turbo in the counrty!

Hmm,
Honestly I'd talk to Chris about spring rates. I think he was running 2200lbs-in units on that car for a while.
My guess from having a 2450lbs 944 NA race car is that 350-400 front and equivlent rear is really stiff for a steet car. In reality I think it will the solid bushings that will rattle your teeth no mater the spring rates!

dmoffitt

not to be rude, but i'd rather have some constructive comments than criticism. i know this may not be the most orthadox thing, in fact, it's pretty wild / insane in some aspects, but NEVER in my life have i gone about doing stuff the "normal" way. I know this is a race car chassis. I know it's not a comfy little street car with leather this and climate control that... but my "Street" car is almost a race car as it is, no AC, no heat, no interior besides the dash, some carpet, and 2 sparco seats, no headlights save the fog/drv combos... and i was planning on the CF bodywork soon for the sake of weight reduction (and cuz my body had some rust. i didnt' buy a concours car i bought a project car). I also wanted to work on the suspension. My original goal was to not TOUCH the motor, and just do the suspension on my car, but you can never stick to things as if they were carved in stone. between burning a valve, a worn out bottom end, and so on, the engine got upgraded while being rebuilt. now, the car is getting a massive chassis/body/suspension upgrade because of my car getting totaled. Not exactly the time-frame nor progression i'd planned, but one can't always count on stuff falling into line with one's original plans.

i've got delrin bushings on my car now, not exactly the most forgiving. i like a direct/responsive suspension. i was just curious as to the wear / strength / ride of sphericals were (from people running them, not just "oh, i heard those are horendeously rough" - heck i've heard that too hence the post, i just am looking for feedback).

i'm not looking for people to tell me "that's a bad idea" - it's not that i'm blind to suggestions or criticism, that's what i'm asking for. but the truth of all of this is, all of the things chris did to/with this car are the things i was planning to do with my car over the next 1-2 years, and the amt. its saving to buy it, and have it already complete / tested / proven is incredible. yeah it seems pretty far from ordinary, but that's me

so really, i'm just looking for an idea of what to do about spring rates (lindsey is/was running 650 front, 450 rear, on a car aprpox 2500lb) - I am thinking something in the 4-500 range at least (the car has the kokeln rear piece aka no t-bars, so that needs to be taken into account when figuring rear spring rate). i'm a suspension neophyte, not ignorant about the concepts, but by no means an expert and would appreciate input.

M758

Alright dude.. Do what you want.

Personally I feel my 944-spec car is too raw to drive on the street. Sure I could but why? My stock Turbo S is plenty fast on the street anyway. If I want that race car feeling I just do it with my spec car on the track.
This is MY personal opinion.

If you want to go father I can't help and suspect that there are only a few you have anything close to what you are looking for on the street. You are breaking new or realtively new ground.
Go for it and enjoy!
Just be prepared for ALOT of <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="eek.gif" /> responses!

<img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

dmoffitt

I'm by no means trying to attack you personally M758 - i welcome your opinion! I certainly hope to enjoy this, the "raw" thing is actually what i'm going for - i know this sounds odd and it's a tough comparison to make, but you know how there are tons of kids running around in japan with retarded horsepower and not even close to legal cars? well, in a sense (and a very loose one!!) i liken this to that idea - something on the edge, out there, by no means ordinary. plus, i consider myself a pretty competative driver for autoX, i wish i could have 3 cars, one for every day driving, one for that, and one for the track... but i can't. so i want something that's going to be able to suit all of my needs, if the streetability part has to suffer, so be it. i'd rather give up ride comfort and such for the rest...

thx for your input, and again plz don't take my (longwinded) response personally!! <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

M758

Not at all! <img border="0" alt="[bigbye]" title="" src="graemlins/xyxwave.gif" />

User 41221

I dunno... maybe I am just getting too old, but that car doesn't sound like a lot of fun to drive on the street to me. lol

Anyway, as for your original question, I think the problem with solid mounts and spherical bearings is that they aren't designed to take the loads that they will be subjected to on the street. Discomfort aside, I think you will see accelerated wear and failure of components, since the main purpose of the rubber bushings that street driven cars have is to soften the impact to system components so that they will last longer. The fact that it improves the comfort level is a bonus. Race cars with suspensions designed like your proposed car (oh, and yes, I am jealous!) are made to be driven on carefully prepared surfaces.

I am not implying that it can't be done, I am just suggesting that wear and tear will be a factor and until you make it a track only car, you will probably need to plan on more frequent checks of various components under the car.

Regards,

SamGrant951

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">Originally posted by dmoffitt:
[QB]the "raw" thing is actually what i'm going for - if the streetability part has to suffer, so be it. i'd rather give up ride comfort and such for the rest...QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Helvetica">I love the idea! the more and more I drive my turbo the more I want to rip it apart and get to the basics. If I had the money, I would buy a caterham 7 right now to have for a daily driver for the next few months. nothing could be more satisfying while its warm and sunny out...until I get broadsided by a truck that is...so basically go for it and keep us updated!!

dmoffitt

thanks scott - so what parts would you suggest swapping out for poly, delrin, or rubber (boooo) to help protect things? that was my main concern - i'd rather spend a few dollars now and save the rest of the parts for when it IS a purely track-only car, than spend a lot more later fixing stuff...

thanks again!

phlip

I drive my car every day. It has approx. tripple stock spring rates. Custom chrome moly ft. control arms with large heim joints at pick-up points, upper strut mounts with spherical and flat thrust style bearings ( these will wear a lot). Stock rear torque tube with solid mount bushings. On smooth roads its great, on rough surfaces not so great. In the rain if you get into a panic situation oversteer or understeer come on much easier. My wife will bearely ride in it let alone drive it. Maybe thats a good thing. I plan on getting a truck for every day and towing. But no matter what I do my car I will always keep it barely legal to drive on the street. Its just too much fun.

mumzer

the problem with running a race car as a daily driver regardless of whether or not you are really interested in the ride quality, is that you incurr wear and tear to consumable parts, tires, pads, break fluid, and to hard parts like CVs, calipers, synchros, balljoints, and steering rack etc. that all have a cumulative affect on how reliable and how competitive the car will be at the race track.

As a for instance, the spherical bearings that you have specifically asked about are clearanced to their bores with only a few thou...any more than that and they begin to rattle and then to hammer the ***** into the races and flat spot them. The grit and grime that will invariably work its way into these bits will do so much faster on city streets than on a clean racing surface.

Now for an informed opinion from building a variety of dual purpose cars for customers over the years.

The days of driving your tr-3 to the run offs and winning the G production national championship are over. A highly tuned GT car like this (which incidentally is going to be badly outclassed in the auto-x class it will land in) requires an awful lot of maintenance and an awful lot of tweaking specific to the particular tracks it will run.

Compromise cars are usually not very good as race cars or as street cars. Although this car was a competitive race car in its day, the wear and tear that will accumulate in street drving is going to slow it down. By the time you are ready to race this thing, its gonna be ready for a rebuild.

Dave E

I put racer's edge sherical bushings in the trailing arms, and had strut bearing plates as well in my previous car and noticed a little more road noise but thats about it. The tires didn't rub on the fenders anymore on the track and the feel was alot more consistent at the cornering limit. I am currently putting those bushings in my latest 951 and delrin bushings too. I only drive the car on resonably nice days (~4000mi/yr.) if I can help it though, I have a truck for a daily driver.

DangerIsland

I think people are trying to do you a favor by telling you that this thing isn't a street car. Hitting some potholes and just putting lots of miles on the car are going to take a heavy heavy toll on it and ruin a lot of your investment.

Mumzer also has a good point about the AutoX thing. This thing doesn't sound like it's been set up for Autocrossing, and will likely get trounced in its class.

There's a big difference between not wanting things like A/C, heat, and leather... and having a full blown racecar with parts that are going to get trashed on the street. I think people are more concerned about the CAR getting hurt than you not feeling comfy <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />