M Danger

So im looking for a new turbo, and if i hear another "yeah we got our stage blah blah turbo, that will do what you want", im gonna puke!
And kokelns responce was even worse, basically equating to "buy our turbo and dont ask any quiestions", great, let me just get my running shoes...

So i have been looking around and came up with 2 turbos i thought might be good canidates.
The 60-1 hifi/ with a O trim and .63 hot side(or an 8)
or the to4e/57 or 60 trim with the same hot side

Also thought about the ballbearing option which turbonetics says will provide up to 500rpm sooner boost, but other shops have said that they didnt notice any improvement(but they werent talking about being used on a 951)

any thoughts? or other ideas?
thanks
Mike <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Luke

Turbonetics rocks, (or so I have been told) , But a bb option isn't worth it. Go with the 60 trim T04e <img src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" border="0" alt="[cheers]" />

Bri Bro

Using TurboCal by TurboFast to see the maps for the three Turbos, all but the TO4E/57 ran into the surge limit area. The TO4E/57 fit was good and had a lot of room to increase boost without losing efficiency. The TO4E/50 and the TO4E/54 also have good fits, it all depends on were you want to run your boost at.

Bri Bro

Bump...Only one of the two turbo bearing are ball bearing in the T04E. Some say it helps lower the spool-up time and other say they see no difference. I ordered it on the hope that it would improve the spool-up time. I am waiting on the turbo so I can't comment futher.

Jeremy Martin

Mike, you seem to be pointed in the right direction. the first thing to consider is if you want to keep the stock dme or not; the stock dme will probably only allow injector sized in the 50's lb/hr (i dont know this for sure, is anyone using larger injectors with the stock dme with reliable success?). this means that your boost will be limited to your injector size, which in the 50's will be around 18-22psi positive (dont forget about possible knocking with that kind of pressure). now that you know the ceiling, the trick is to find a turbo that will spool to that pressure as soon as possible; turbos must be matched to the application you are using them for. match your entire system around what you want it to do... so, for the turbo, look at flow maps. alot of them. this page has a ton of flow maps for garrett's: <a href="http://www.turbofast.com.au/flowmaps.html..." target="_blank">http://www.turbofast.com.au/flowmaps.html...</a> they are generic flow maps assuming a 1.0 a/r. And there is a javascript calculator for trying to read the maps with your setup, but it's more guesswork with that calculator then anything else... there is a "turbomatcher" calculator on that page. dont trust it... it will tell you you want a t3 with a 1.06 a/r (which doesnt exist, at least that i could find in my research), or you want a t4 of some kind... the latter is true, but not the model it reccomends. the best turbo i've found is a t04e with a 60 trim and a .63 a/r. it has a nice, FAST spool time to the target of 20psi positive; AND it does it at 80% efficiency (thats incredible)... This turbo came reccomended by corky bell as well, the father of modern boost with electronic fuel injection (check out his tuning shop, <a href="http://www.cartech.net," target="_blank">www.cartech.net,</a> it's one of the few really good gems out there). as for other upgrades, dont worry about most of the bull**** "level 3 stage A" stuff you might see people hawking. do your own research and come to your own conclusion, chances are you can find exactly what you want for a fraction of the cost of what these tuneing shops are selling things for.

Jeremy Martin

oh yeah, one last thing about barings. there are a few kinds, depending on the manufacturer, but they fall into ball baring and needle baring. needle barings are usually described as a "270 degree" or "360 degree" bearing. this is a rating of how much of the bearing is lubricated at any one time; so for 270 barings 3/4 of the baring if properly lubricated. this isnt a problem if you're running low levels of boost even on a daily driver, but you will run into reliablity problems down the road if you have a daily driver pushing 20psi on a 270 baring... then you have ball baring, which has subsets such as ceramics and the like. these are all really ideanitical, and quite reliable... you wont notice much of a difference in 360 barings and any ball baring in performance or reliability, even with massive boost... oh yeah, one last thing. GET A WATERCOOLED TURBO. DONT even consider otherwise... you have a watercooled porsche, use it! water cooling the turbo will make sure less oil cooks in it, thus prolonging the life of the turbo.. the goal is to have everything working well enough and tuned well enough on a dailer driver turbo so that the first thing to go will be the seals (not any barings), and that shouldnt happen for 70-100k+ miles depending on how you pamper her... pampering being either installing a turbo timer to run water through it for longer after you turn off the car, or leave the car running for a couple minutes before you turn it off (the 951 does have a turbo timer installed, but if you've been pushing the boost before you park, it's a good idea to give it some time before you turn it off).

Bri Bro

What Martin said about looking at the maps is very importent. Several good books are: Maximum Boost by Bell and Turbochargers by Macinnes. Getting enough fuel to keep a 12.5/1 AFR under boost is another subject that you need to research...unless you like changing head gaskets.

When talking about efficiency, it is important to also say at what boost and RPM. The TO4E/60 is in the 80% area at 20 Lbs Boost but only above 5600 RPM. At 3500 RPM with 16 lbs of boost it is close to the surge line. So if you run at high RPM and Boost the 60 looks great. If you run at lower RPM and boost the 60 doesn't look as good.

danny951

I talked to majestic in waco, and he suggested a 57 trim (after I told him I want 350HP at the wheels). I don't know enough to do the research and check out the compressor maps.. basically never figured out how to read them.. but it's good to hear others recommending the 57 trim garret's as well. he's gonna use my existing #6 exhaust and do some nice mods on the compressor side to give it max power for the 1 - 1.3 bar I'll be running.

: )

M Danger

cool thanks
I just noticed something though, at least on turbonetics site, the .63 housing is, for the t3 and on the to4, it jumps from a .58 to a .69
whats up here?

oh I think i'll go with a 360 bearing

Danno

Yeah, I agree with Jeremy. The extra plumbing for the turbo water-pump is minimal, but makes a huge difference in durability. Just compare the 951's turbo longevity with the 931's (have to replace about every 30-40k miles).

"the first thing to consider is if you want to keep the stock dme or not; the stock dme will probably only allow injector sized in the 50's lb/hr (i dont know this for sure, is anyone using larger injectors with the stock dme with reliable success?)."

Yeah, I'm using some Seimens low-impedance peak&hold 55lb/hr injectors with the stock DME without any problems. Using the stock injectors, I maxed out at 290rwhp @ 12psi using the Huntley Stg.2 turbo before a certain S.D. 'tuner' blew it up on the dyno. With the larger injectors, I plan on running 16psi for about 333rwhp. We'll see after my next dyno run.

As for upgrade turbos, there are plenty of vendors to choose from who will be more than willing to help with specs:

Bri Bro

Danno, I liked the message you did on what detonation sounds like while on the Dyno. Did this SD tuner replace the head gasket when it gave up?

Danno

Yeah, he replaced it, but he CHARGED me full-price the whole job! At least I was lucky to have his top technician replace the headgasket part, then he got sick. So the 'tuner' finished the job with the timing-belts, intakes and MAF.
On the way home, it was bucking, stumbling and surging like crazy; I thought I was riding a bronco! Anyway, I found about 80% of the hose-clamps in the intake was completely loose! There were a lot of missing bolts and the belt-covers was rattling like crazy.
So to be one the safe side, I tore everything apart up to the point where I could remove the head. I had confidence in the technician's headgakset installation because I saw him doing it (using the updated torque-angles with the proper tools). So after I re-tensioned the belts, put on the covers with all the bolts in place, re-installed the entire intake, THEN the car ran OK. Needless to say, I took several months to pay this 'tuner'.
At least I didn't have to wait close to a year for my car and then have the engine blow up twice within weeks of receiving it like some other people...

Bri Bro

I am glad it didn't happen to me! I tend to keep my temper but I think that would have got the Irish up in me. After reading what happen to you I REALLY started to appreacate how important it is to prevent detontation in these cars. I was lucky that the PO had a good setup and I never ran into this problem. With the mods I am doing I need to be very carefull that this is the case again.

Konstantin

a certain S.D. 'tuner'
---------------

do you mean a San Diego tuner or what???

Konstantin

David Floyd

I just bought a Turbo From Majestic for my new 2.82 ltr engine

The specs are TO4E 60 trim, .50 A/R, #8 Hot, 360 Bearing, 3" Bullet inlet

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/TurboTO4E60-1.eml" target="_blank">http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/TurboTO4E60-1.eml</a>