Regarding MAF's and turbos, I think pretty much everyone upgrades the intake end of things before moving to a bigger turbo. It wasn't a tough decision for me, as my car already had an MAF in it (which apparently cost someone else $1675) when I bought it. I really have no idea about the cheaper mods to the stock intake system as described by Jeremy. However, I do know that my ARC2 fuel controller was invaluable in allowing me to fine-tune my air:fuel ratios on the dyno. As long as your injectors and MAF are properly sized, an afpr and ARC2 can work very well together. Obviously, one could also move to custom chips or a piggy-back "unichip" or similar device.

 

Any one know how much the garrett TO4e would cost with a 57 trim? sounds like the perfect turbo for me.

 

IN regards to custom chips, I checked out a company called superchips.com and they have a chip for the 951 that results in 290hp/320tq with no other mods. But, I am sure there is something they are leaving out.

 

ian is absoloutly right; you NEED some kind of air / fuel meter if you're upgrading the system... if you're running lean, you need to know empirically. you can get neat little one's that will replace your clock (this webpage details someone who did this: <a href="http://members.rennlist.com/951_racerx)," target="_blank">http://members.rennlist.com/951_racerx),</a> or you can get more accurate digital display units... they will all connect to your o2 sensor and save your *** if something is wrong. as for upgrades, whenever you upgrade the air intake you have to think about the other parts of that holy triumvirate, namely fuel and spark. on these cars, the spark is pretty good as is and if you need to you can modify the timing through a new chip burn. fuel is a trick though; you'll want new injectors (people have used high and low impedence with success. i'd reccomend low impedence because it will produce a better spray pattern, but thats just an oppinion. as danno said, there is no right answer to this problem); the injectors needs to be tailerd in size to how much hp and boost you'll be running. then, you'll need to change the fuel pressure regulator. i can unequivocally reccomend the cartech rising rate fpr (www.cartech.net). it's a nice tool that will produce a good idle AND also be able to raise the pressure when you need it as you climb in rpm's. be careful though; dont use this fpr lightly. when you install it, dyno the car and tune it correctly so you're not running lean anywhere along the range... with more control over a system comes more possabilities to make an accident... the fuel pump might be a problem, depending on how close it puts out to it's spec (this is probably a 16 year old part, afterall). best to perform a cc check of it's output before you begin this adventure (i believe it's rated at 1700 cc's a minute)... after that, you'll probably have to change some plumbing like crossover pipes and the like to blot up the turbo; the wastegate may or may not need your attention. i'd feel more comfortable with a larger mm wastegate to bleed off enough boost with a very large turbo. tial makes good units, as do plenty of other shops... since you're also buying a turbo, it would be better to stick with the external wastegate nature of the system on the 951; internal wastegates may bleed less boost though the system but can be a pain for other reasons such as control. i have yet to experience the joys of an internal wastegate though, this comes from reading about the symantic differences between the two types and also from reccomendations of various professionals; while you're doing an upgrade like this, also be prepared to replace alot of old hoses and the like, particularly fuel lines. if memory serves our cars have a recall on them for shotty fuel lines (specifically connectors), and if you have a chance like this to replace them, there is no better time. dont worry about getting stainless steel braided lines or anything overkill like that though... i cant really think of much else that would be necessary to do this kind of upgrade... a boost controller would be a must, manual or electronic (if you get an electronic, save yourself some $$$ and get one through ebay. solid state parts like that are okay to get used)... and last but not least you need to take care of the air flow meter somehow. right now it will peg before you're turbo is fully spooled, causing your car to run rich if you have the correct injector size for that turbo; so, you need to modify the afm to peg at the appropriate psi for the injectors you have on the car... you can do this with a MAF, or you can do this by a simple modification (simple is a pretty loaded term, huh?). if you were to open up the black box on the afm, you'll notice a throttle body style assembly... how our stock afm's work is air blowing through the afm body (the metal part) pushes a butterfly. the axel on this butterfly is connected to a potentiometer to vary current going to the dme; the dme controls the injector duty cycle based on this signal. there is a spring, like on your throttle body, that controls how much air has to push on the butterfly in order to fully open it. if you change the strength of this spring (preload), you'll change how much the air has to push to fully open the butterfly, and thus you'll vary the duty cycle curve. there are pretty easy spring equations to do this, but you could also keep replacing the spring in the sensor while on a dyno until you have the injectors firing the way you want. just be careful, because a spring thats too strong will cause the system to run lean.

 

Silverbullet951, less than $900 with 360 bearing

<img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" /> <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />

 

OK UM back to the turbos.
So right now just know that im going with the Super To4e compressor wheel. but still up in the air about the 57 versus the 60.

One of you said you got the 60 and the other the 57? what may you choose the one you went with?

also on the hot side, the to4 e doesnt come in a .63 A/R, tht only way to get that would be a a t04/t3 hybrid

and the guy that got the t04e-60 i assume the .50 ar is for the hot side right? why did you go with this versus the .58 if not.69 especially since you have a bigger motor?

My rpm limit has been raise to 7k, and i want ot make sure i get full boost to redline. I would think the .50 woudl start to drop off at high rpms?

 

The t04e with a .63 a/r exists... call cartech or turbochargers.com if you want one. one more thing. your redline is 7k now? this is still a 951, right? you might want to be careful of rod failures if you're pushing that much boost that high. it's a known weakness with this engine.. besides, the powerband for this engine really ends around 6k unless you've done some headwork or have a different cam... as for the difference between the 57 and 60, check out the flow chart shapes (http://www.turbofast.com.au/FlowTO4E.html). the 57 is a shorter, wider efficancy loop, while the 60 is a longer, narrower cut. this means the 57 will produce less boost but quicker, while the 60 will keep on a'going... depends on if you want kick you in the *** power fast or a really nice top end.

 

The .50 A/R is cold side, This was suggested by Majestic Turbo after I told them I wanted a balance between quick spool up and be able to support 400 RWHP with the 2.82 ltr.

Do you guy's think this is too small?

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/TurboTO4E60-1.eml" target="_blank">http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/TurboTO4E60-1.eml</a>

 

[quote]Originally posted by Jeremy Martin:
<strong>" HR's cheapest MAF retails for $1195. a maf that performs identically would cost 675 from modern performance </strong><hr></blockquote>

We dont exactly know this yet. Although ........................my PRo M (modern preformance) MAF seems to have an extremely LARGE adj. range

BTW, the only reason they are $675 now is because HUNTLEY and everybody charge so much. I bought mine for $575 and I am positive that if we all went directly to Pro FLOW over here in Grand Rapids, we could get them at around $399 each.

 

[quote]Originally posted by David Floyd:
<strong>The .50 A/R is cold side, This was suggested by Majestic Turbo after I told them I wanted a balance between quick spool up and be able to support 400 RWHP with the 2.82 ltr.

Do you guy's think this is too small?

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/TurboTO4E60-1.eml" target="_blank">http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/TurboTO4E60-1.eml</a></strong><hr></blockquote>


Um I think a little. what size inlet?
whats the hot side?

 

Luke: i agree... i think maf's are the worst example of price gouging with our cars. the idea of paying 675+ for a maf (and that's of course cheap) when it's just a sensor worth between $100-400 RETAIL attached to a k&n cone filter that goes for $130-150 RETAIL is insaine. absoloutly insaine...

 

Originally posted by David Floyd:

The .50 A/R is cold side, This was suggested by Majestic Turbo after I told them I wanted a balance between quick spool up and be able to support 400 RWHP with the 2.82 ltr.

I am confused why A/R would be used to spec a cold side (compressor).

Here is how I have found that Turbo are sized.
Compressor:
Trim option which normal relates to the inducer size in a give series. For instance, the 57 and 60 trim on differ by 60 thousandth of an inch. The trim option is mapped by the manufacturer. The map can then be used to see how a trim will work for your engine/RPM/Boost.
Turbine:
Area/Radius (A/R) determines the velocity of the exhaust gas driving the turbine wheel. A low A/R number(0.5) will have fast spool but will flatten out at higher RPM because the exhaust flow is restricted. A high A/R (0.8) will spool slower but will be able to support higher velocity of exhaust gas at higher RPM. Getting the correct A/R for an application is a trial/error process. If the responce is so fast that the car jumps, the A/R is too small. If it has sluggish boost, the A/R is to big.

Trim: This is the Turbine wheel trim number/letter

 

I said cold side because A/R .50 is cast on the cold housing, is this not right?

Specs on my invoice are TO4E, 60-1, #8 hot,
stage 3 (there's that stage stuff again) 3" bullet inlet, oil and water cooled

Opinions please, good, bad, ok, great?

 

is it a 60-1 hifi?
it sounds like you got a hybrid, with a t3 hot side, if youll look on the turbonetics site (where majestic gets most of its stuff from) they list the t3 hot sides in "stages" where as the other turbo hot sides are listed in letters, N,O,P,Q.

what does it say on the hot side of the turbo?
I noticed on the picture there is no turbo netics stamp, so maybe its a direct garret version versus a turbonetics, one(but the 2 companies are very close.)
maybe thats just what the t04e-60 housing just happens to be, im not sure.
but i do think your hot side is a t3 and sounds a bit small for you motor, if i were you i think i would have gone with the .69 to4
<a href="http://turboneticsinc.com/catalog/thousing.html" target="_blank">http://turboneticsinc.com/catalog/thousing.html</a>

 

<a href="http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Turbonetics#8Hot.jpg" target="_blank">http://boards.rennlist.com/upload/Turbonetics#8Hot.jpg</a>

It has Turbonetics "T" on the housing and #8 stamped just inside the inlet.

I think the HIFI has a smaller inlet size, mine is 3"