BoostGuy951

<img border="0" alt="[soapbox]" title="" src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" />
Call me old fashioned, but I think cheating at the autocross is pretty pathetic. Even if you win, what pride can you have knowing that the trophy you recieved is no longer an award signifying your driving ability, but rather you lack of morals.
*Steps down off soap box*

Now the reason for the post:
There is a guy at my local autocross who consistently contends for the Fastest times of the day in a stock 2.5 liter Naturally aspirated 944.

I probably should have prefaced this by saying that I have no actual proof that he is cheating, but I will say that it is the fastest damn 944 I have ever seen. I had the opportunity of being a flag man on the second corner (a hairpin just before a straight) and just watching this thing come out of that corner nose raised up was something unbelieveable.

Now, This is only my second autocross, and I am definitely not saying that it isn't possible for an experienced NA driver to beat a newbie in a Turbo. Actually, I would probably bet on the NA This guy didnt just beat me, it was bad... Really bad.

Despite being new, I think I am a prety decent driver. I run in "B" Prepared, and since there were no other cars in my class, I was bumped up to "A" Prepared, where I ran close to the middle of the pack out of seven cars. On this particular day I ran a best time of 68 seconds. The NA ran a 62. That is a HUGE difference. He beat every car in Super Stock, "A" stock and "B" stock, except for one M Roadster got him by a second.

Sorry for all the bitching guys, just trying to vent.
Oh yeah, this guy is the tech inspector!

Rich Sandor

If you have no proof...

Danno

Well, the lag on the Turbo definitely doesn't help autocross times. To really extract the best times out of one, you'd have to master the rally-driver method, full-throttle the entire time around to keep the boost & revs up. Then modulate your speed with the left foot on the brakes.

Another thing is that there's not much you can do to extract a significant amount of power out of a 944NA. But a Turbo on the other hand.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="wink.gif" />

BoostGuy951

Maybe I am out of line here, This guy could just be a really great driver. On the other hand, I am almost positive he has a gutted exhaust, I know that nasty "Cat-less" sound, I drove a 89 NA without one for 2 years. Even so, he would have to be damn good to beat up on everyone with just a free flowing exhaust.

Has anyone seen a stock NA do anything like this?

"Well, the lag on the Turbo definitely doesn't help autocross times."

I will have to agree on that, Danno, it is gonna take some effort to master the lag. I realized I was gonna have to start hitting the throttle midway through the turns after my first run. my second run dropped 2 seconds.

Matt Sheppard

You know it is hard to tell, esp. if HE is the tech inspector. He could have raised compressin or even a 2.8 crank in there and it would be hard to tell by anyone w/out tearing down the engine. NA's driven by a guy who knows how to hook and book can usually beat a turbo in Auto X situations even w/out cheating.

keith

I'm faster in the NA than the turbo as well.

The guy might have LSD also, then it's a quick autocross car!

...even quicker if it were a 924S.

Rich Sandor

Yeah, autocross is a different game. In a true road race, like Road Atlanta or Sebring or so on, the NA's don't have much chance. But in the tight low speed corners of an autocross, an S2 or NA might have the advantage. (Especially if the tech inspector is also setting up the course!!)

On top of that, a tech inspector probably has WAY more track experience than you, if you've only gone once before. That counts for a lot more than you want to believe!

Don't worry, go out enough and I'm sure you'll start catching up on him.

rage2

My 1st year of SoloII, I was amazed at how these guys are consistently 3 seconds ahead of me... I considered myself a pretty good driver. 1/2 way through the year, I realized how much there is to gain on a 40 second course if you get some real tires (sticky R compounds), align the car right, and learn to adjust tire pressures properly.

I even pulled a FTD by mid season in my rookie year.

rage2

Oh, about the cheating, there's an old saying... it ain't cheating if you don't get caught. There are a few guys that seem to openly cheat, but hey, more satisfaction for me when I whoop their *** .

Ahmet

AFAK 944 NAs usually beat turbos @auto-xes. I bet I'd run a slower time in my turbo also. Sh*t, I know I've been against some good drivers (of 944 turbos) in my NA at autocrosses before, never turned in a time slower than a turbo w/my NA...

Oh and as far as looking like shooting out of corners,
<img src="http://www.owners-gallery.com/uploads/fullthrottle396.jpg" alt=" - " />
like has been mentioned before, a 944 w/LSD really hooks up. My car was stock without a cat, you can call that cheating if you want, I didn't care. Oh it also had polyurethane bushings in the front, I raced it as "stock". Later got 2nd place in regional finals in "street prepared" with springs only if I remember correctly, so it goes both ways...
Ahmet

wjk_glynn

I had a quick look back through the SCCA Solo II National results for previous years and A-Stock has been won by 944S2 and 968 cars, never by a 951 (unless I missed it somewhere).

Karl.

BTW - The Honda S2000 is the current king of the hill in the equivalent classes today.

mumzer

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by BoostGuy951:
[QB] <img border="0" alt="[soapbox]" title="" src="graemlins/soapbox.gif" />
Call me old fashioned, but I think cheating at the autocross is pretty pathetic. Even if you win, what pride can you have knowing that the trophy you recieved is no longer an award signifying your driving ability, but rather you lack of morals.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Not old fashioned, just unrealistic. I dont care what you are driving, if you lack the talent that he has, he is going to go faster.

Particularly on a tight auto-x course where the power isnt an advantage, car control skills, properly developed shocks and alignment settings, and the right tire. I have no idea if your car is well prepared or not, but if he is an SCCA scrutineer, I will guess that his is.

Get the car to miniumum weight, get it corner weighted and aligned, get it bump-steered properly, and then run a few hundred auto-xs...you'll catch him eventually.

By the way...morality? You do want to WIN dont you? Get serious...this is racing.

guardsred951S

Yeh, turbo's are terrible at autocross but with a little experience, you can beat anything and everything on the course. My times are now equaling those of N/A drivers that have been doing it for years. A properly setup NA with sticky tires and a good driver will easily equal a turbo at autocross - on a road course, it's a very different story. We frequently run with the corvette club and the NA's smoke the vette's with sometimes 3X the power - those muscle cars don't do anything but go in a straight line but that's getting much better now - they actually handle too! Another note is the corvair that came out to an event that got the FTD with a car that uses its front wheels as rudders at highway speeds.

The 951's taller gear ratio's are good because you can drive it around at 4K rpm, right on boost, where the N/A's really have to be in second so as not to rev the **** out of their engine. They of course have a more flat power band but it still doesn't peak until what? - 5500 rpm or so.

There's a couple of tricks to autocross (already mentioned but I thought I'd summarize... ) :

1. Driver with experience - more time behind the wheel = faster times!
2. Car setup
3. Sticky tires that are properly inflated - will knock 4-5 seconds of a minute course
4. Know the cars power curve

I personally have to confess to running in stock class by accident a couple of times 'cause I didn't know that I was But next year it's in mod. class and I'm ready get some good times!

Also, don't worry about everybody elses times but rather beating your own best time. Pretty soon you'll be kickn' everybody's *** anyway!

<img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" />

Magown

Boostguy951, are you talking about EDIT: Name with held to protect the innocent. a guy Florida with a worn out looking zermatt '87 NA? He comes up to some of our Mississippi SCCA events and has absolutely spanked my A$$ each time, everyone else too for that matter.

I have spent a lot of time talking to him and ridden with him. He says the only thing he's done to it is Koni Yellows. Still he is usually right up there with FTD. Anyhow, we've got a father and son combo in our PCA/SCCA region who regular whoop A$$ in a Boxster 2.5L. They formally had an '86 NA, and like you are floored by the times he turning too.

jc22

Two things:

1) You better be DAMN sure someone is cheating before you slam them on a public forum. If you think he's cheating, I would approach him individually like a man, and have a talk. This is not the way to question someone's character.

2) A 944 NA driven by an experienced driver would whip someone in their 2nd event with a turbo even at a track like Sebring. Much less an autocross.