Which wastegate to buy??????
04-07-2002, 10:59 PM
#31
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Tom, seems like a case of mistaken identity, chances are, the guy
that Tim's confusing you with, may have recieved a battery hold
down bracket, unexpectidly....?
Tom Pultz is the type of person that you wont mistake his identity:^) Trust me. This is not the case. John and Tom need to work this out. Tom may think that I have no clue about anything and he can call us Speed Farce Racing all he wants.The truth to the matter is unless John generates an invoice from his private emails or by phone and puts it up on the board in our shop then I have no clue what kind of deals he is doing.The same thing goes for me.Unless I generate an invoice and put it up on the boards, John and the rest of the guys have no idea what kind of deals I am doing. This is one of the things that is difficult about having a partner;^( I also have no access to his private email at blackbox@san.rr.com. He has no access to my private email(when it is working)
The only email accounts I have access to are:
info@speedforceracing.com
tim@speedforcewracing.com
john@speedforceracing.com
timer1@home.com(which is presently down for good)
So if Tom didnt email his request to any of these email addresses then I am dependant on John to make sure the guys at the shop know it is an SFR deal. So at the present, there is no invoice, no shipping address or anything else that has to do with Tom Pultz that I know of.The only mention in the last month that had anything to do with Tom Pultz was a court case. Huntley Racing vs.John Anderson.There was a document that Derrick brought which clearly showed the way Tom Pultz felt about SFR.If you want more details Tom, feel free to email me off the list.I can recount everything that was in this email. Remember we get to look at all the evidence before the case begins.
I am sorry if Tom does not understand this.I am sorry Tom feels the way he does.
that Tim's confusing you with, may have recieved a battery hold
down bracket, unexpectidly....?
Tom Pultz is the type of person that you wont mistake his identity:^) Trust me. This is not the case. John and Tom need to work this out. Tom may think that I have no clue about anything and he can call us Speed Farce Racing all he wants.The truth to the matter is unless John generates an invoice from his private emails or by phone and puts it up on the board in our shop then I have no clue what kind of deals he is doing.The same thing goes for me.Unless I generate an invoice and put it up on the boards, John and the rest of the guys have no idea what kind of deals I am doing. This is one of the things that is difficult about having a partner;^( I also have no access to his private email at blackbox@san.rr.com. He has no access to my private email(when it is working)
The only email accounts I have access to are:
info@speedforceracing.com
tim@speedforcewracing.com
john@speedforceracing.com
timer1@home.com(which is presently down for good)
So if Tom didnt email his request to any of these email addresses then I am dependant on John to make sure the guys at the shop know it is an SFR deal. So at the present, there is no invoice, no shipping address or anything else that has to do with Tom Pultz that I know of.The only mention in the last month that had anything to do with Tom Pultz was a court case. Huntley Racing vs.John Anderson.There was a document that Derrick brought which clearly showed the way Tom Pultz felt about SFR.If you want more details Tom, feel free to email me off the list.I can recount everything that was in this email. Remember we get to look at all the evidence before the case begins.
I am sorry if Tom does not understand this.I am sorry Tom feels the way he does.
04-07-2002, 11:05 PM
#32
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So, basically this does technically the same thing as the Lindsey
Boost Enhancer. Only there are two settings on the SFR unit. And if
these two products work correctly, then I shouldn't need a new
wastegate even if mine bleeds right? Since there is no pressure going
to the wastegate until the set pressure is reached at the LBE/SFR B2,
then the spring on the wastegate does not have the opportunity to
bleed, right? Then in that case, wouldn't it be just as good as getting
a new Tial?
If your wastegate is working properly then you dont need a new one. You can control it with a simple manual or electric controller.If your wastegate is not working properly then no matter what kind of controller you have, the wastegate will still bleed boost because the exhaust will overcome the spring pressure in the wastegate or leak past the valve seat.Once this happens boost bleeds off.
Boost Enhancer. Only there are two settings on the SFR unit. And if
these two products work correctly, then I shouldn't need a new
wastegate even if mine bleeds right? Since there is no pressure going
to the wastegate until the set pressure is reached at the LBE/SFR B2,
then the spring on the wastegate does not have the opportunity to
bleed, right? Then in that case, wouldn't it be just as good as getting
a new Tial?
If your wastegate is working properly then you dont need a new one. You can control it with a simple manual or electric controller.If your wastegate is not working properly then no matter what kind of controller you have, the wastegate will still bleed boost because the exhaust will overcome the spring pressure in the wastegate or leak past the valve seat.Once this happens boost bleeds off.
04-08-2002, 12:41 AM
#33
Nordschleife Master
[quote]Originally posted by TurboTim:
<strong>
If your wastegate is not working properly then no matter what kind of controller you have, the wastegate will still bleed boost because the exhaust will overcome the spring pressure in the wastegate or leak past the valve seat.Once this happens boost bleeds off.</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by TCarrera:
<strong>But, the Tial will no more hold boost without a manual controller than the stock unit does. We bought a Tial three years ago for our own car, ordered it from Powerhaus with a 1.1 bar spring.
We installed the unit and at the first event we ran at, we only saw 14 pounds of boost. We contacted Powerhaus the next week, they couldn't explain why but sent us a 1.2 bar spring to see of that would give us enought boost. 14.5 pounds was the result. The only way we were able to achieve the 18 pound of boost we were wanting was to install a manual controller. The Tial suffers from the same problem as the stock wastegate, the backpressure in the exhaust system forces the wastegate open and the boost falls off or never reaches the desired level.
The factory wastegate was originally designed to open at only 3 pounds of boost, that is why the boost comes on so slow and soft in the stock 951.
By installing a MBC on a stock wastegate, you are just restricting the amount of air going to the unit. That is why the Ian had trouble, "The only problem was sensitivity. I found that a very small twist of the MBC would change the boost by quite a bit."
Since the hot side of the wastegate works fine, its the single port configuration of the control valve that is the problem. We decided to design a dual port control that would fit the stock exhaust housing. That is why the unit is a direct bolt-in, it is the same exhaust housing as you are removing. Why go through the hassle of additional exhaust mods, we have a customer that tried to get a muffler shop weld in his Tial unit and once they got the car on a lift and saw the cat had been removed, they refused to work on the car.
We have never had a customer call and tell us of any problem with our unit what-so-ever. I can say I have heard plenty of problems with the Delta, expecially on race cars operating at sustained high boost pressures. They might work OK for short periods of time but the sustained high temps cause problems with the Delta.
We were told by the guys at Kokeln that part of the problem behind the wastegate was the KKK Turbo. The said that the exhaust backpressure goes from a 1-1 ratio, boost pressure vs exhaust backpressure to nearly a 1-5 ratio when trying to run higher than 14 pounds of boost. We installed two boost gauses in our test car, one on the intake manifold and the second on the exhaust crossover pipe. We ran the car in numerous driving conditions and various boost pressures. Kokeln was right on the money, up to 14 lbs of boost, the exhaust backpressure matched it almost exactly. But once it hit 15 lbs, things changed. Trying to hold 15 pounds in 4th gear, the exhaust pressure slowly climbed to almost 18 pounds and as it did, the boost pressure slowly dropped.
We adjusted it to 18 pounds of boost and saw nearly 30 pounds of exhaust backpressure at the point. That much pressure applied to the backside of the wastegate valve forces the gate back open and there goes your boost.
The problem lies in the turbo, the compressor is trying to operate beyond its design limits, remember these KKK units are basicly the same as they were back in the late 70's. The answer is the new design Garrett units which are more efficient and can operate at the higher boost pressures without excessive exhaust backpressure.
Kokeln has spent a lot of money working with Turbonetics and has developed hot housings and trim designes for the Garrett Turbo that are exclusive to Kokeln and only available on their turbo's.
Sorry for the lengthy explanation but I felt it was necessary to prove a point, we do a lot of testing with our products and go our of our way to understand what is going on with these cars.
We are not just a couple of parts pushers. When you call us, you get to talk to one of us personally, not some DS salesman that has never even owned a Porsche.
Mike at LR
</strong><hr></blockquote>
I took this off a previous wastegate thread
You can check out all of Mike's answers to similar questions <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/cgi-bin/rennforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=000792" target="_blank">here</a> if you would like to hear both sides to the story.
<strong>
If your wastegate is not working properly then no matter what kind of controller you have, the wastegate will still bleed boost because the exhaust will overcome the spring pressure in the wastegate or leak past the valve seat.Once this happens boost bleeds off.</strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote]Originally posted by TCarrera:
<strong>But, the Tial will no more hold boost without a manual controller than the stock unit does. We bought a Tial three years ago for our own car, ordered it from Powerhaus with a 1.1 bar spring.
We installed the unit and at the first event we ran at, we only saw 14 pounds of boost. We contacted Powerhaus the next week, they couldn't explain why but sent us a 1.2 bar spring to see of that would give us enought boost. 14.5 pounds was the result. The only way we were able to achieve the 18 pound of boost we were wanting was to install a manual controller. The Tial suffers from the same problem as the stock wastegate, the backpressure in the exhaust system forces the wastegate open and the boost falls off or never reaches the desired level.
The factory wastegate was originally designed to open at only 3 pounds of boost, that is why the boost comes on so slow and soft in the stock 951.
By installing a MBC on a stock wastegate, you are just restricting the amount of air going to the unit. That is why the Ian had trouble, "The only problem was sensitivity. I found that a very small twist of the MBC would change the boost by quite a bit."
Since the hot side of the wastegate works fine, its the single port configuration of the control valve that is the problem. We decided to design a dual port control that would fit the stock exhaust housing. That is why the unit is a direct bolt-in, it is the same exhaust housing as you are removing. Why go through the hassle of additional exhaust mods, we have a customer that tried to get a muffler shop weld in his Tial unit and once they got the car on a lift and saw the cat had been removed, they refused to work on the car.
We have never had a customer call and tell us of any problem with our unit what-so-ever. I can say I have heard plenty of problems with the Delta, expecially on race cars operating at sustained high boost pressures. They might work OK for short periods of time but the sustained high temps cause problems with the Delta.
We were told by the guys at Kokeln that part of the problem behind the wastegate was the KKK Turbo. The said that the exhaust backpressure goes from a 1-1 ratio, boost pressure vs exhaust backpressure to nearly a 1-5 ratio when trying to run higher than 14 pounds of boost. We installed two boost gauses in our test car, one on the intake manifold and the second on the exhaust crossover pipe. We ran the car in numerous driving conditions and various boost pressures. Kokeln was right on the money, up to 14 lbs of boost, the exhaust backpressure matched it almost exactly. But once it hit 15 lbs, things changed. Trying to hold 15 pounds in 4th gear, the exhaust pressure slowly climbed to almost 18 pounds and as it did, the boost pressure slowly dropped.
We adjusted it to 18 pounds of boost and saw nearly 30 pounds of exhaust backpressure at the point. That much pressure applied to the backside of the wastegate valve forces the gate back open and there goes your boost.
The problem lies in the turbo, the compressor is trying to operate beyond its design limits, remember these KKK units are basicly the same as they were back in the late 70's. The answer is the new design Garrett units which are more efficient and can operate at the higher boost pressures without excessive exhaust backpressure.
Kokeln has spent a lot of money working with Turbonetics and has developed hot housings and trim designes for the Garrett Turbo that are exclusive to Kokeln and only available on their turbo's.
Sorry for the lengthy explanation but I felt it was necessary to prove a point, we do a lot of testing with our products and go our of our way to understand what is going on with these cars.
We are not just a couple of parts pushers. When you call us, you get to talk to one of us personally, not some DS salesman that has never even owned a Porsche.
Mike at LR
</strong><hr></blockquote>I took this off a previous wastegate thread
You can check out all of Mike's answers to similar questions <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/cgi-bin/rennforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=18&t=000792" target="_blank">here</a> if you would like to hear both sides to the story.
04-09-2002, 04:37 AM
#34
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I'm just not understanding, Tim, how my stock wastegate will bleed off if the LBE or your Boost2 is blocking all the air BEFORE it gets to the wastegate. And if I set one of the products at say 14 psi, then my Wastegate, which will open early by factory spec (at even 3psi) wil not have a chance to bleed my boost since it isn't going to see the air until the 14psi is reached and the LBE or Boost2 opens up to allow the exhaust to go to the wastegate. IS this not right????
Thanks! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
Thanks! <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
04-09-2002, 11:51 AM
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I'm just not understanding, Tim, how my stock wastegate will bleed off if the LBE or
your Boost2 is blocking all the air BEFORE it gets to the wastegate. And if I set one
of the products at say 14 psi, then my Wastegate, which will open early by factory
spec (at even 3psi) wil not have a chance to bleed my boost since it isn't going to
see the air until the 14psi is reached and the LBE or Boost2 opens up to allow the
exhaust to go to the wastegate. IS this not right????
Its not right.You are not understanding that regardless of what kind of pressure signal your wastegate sees from any type of controller, it can still have the exhaust force the valve open early becasue of a weak spring or have some of the exhaust slip by because of a bad valve seat.This will cause the boost to bleed off.
your Boost2 is blocking all the air BEFORE it gets to the wastegate. And if I set one
of the products at say 14 psi, then my Wastegate, which will open early by factory
spec (at even 3psi) wil not have a chance to bleed my boost since it isn't going to
see the air until the 14psi is reached and the LBE or Boost2 opens up to allow the
exhaust to go to the wastegate. IS this not right????
Its not right.You are not understanding that regardless of what kind of pressure signal your wastegate sees from any type of controller, it can still have the exhaust force the valve open early becasue of a weak spring or have some of the exhaust slip by because of a bad valve seat.This will cause the boost to bleed off.
04-11-2002, 06:07 PM
#36
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TurboTim,
I emailed you to find out more about this. I hope you will find time to reply and help me understand this more.
Basically, I just want to stop losing the initial boost pressure from my stock wastegate by putting something like an LBE before the wastegate stopping the pressure to give me that extra boost in the bottom end. (repeating myself). Since this will correct the problem of the stock wastegate, I don't see why I would benefit from a new Tial, unless I want to extra boost, like 1.2 bar or more... but with just a stock boost, in what ways would I benefit from a new wastegate that I couldn't gain by using an LBE?
I emailed you to find out more about this. I hope you will find time to reply and help me understand this more.
Basically, I just want to stop losing the initial boost pressure from my stock wastegate by putting something like an LBE before the wastegate stopping the pressure to give me that extra boost in the bottom end. (repeating myself). Since this will correct the problem of the stock wastegate, I don't see why I would benefit from a new Tial, unless I want to extra boost, like 1.2 bar or more... but with just a stock boost, in what ways would I benefit from a new wastegate that I couldn't gain by using an LBE?
04-11-2002, 10:33 PM
#37
Nordschleife Master
The LRBE wont function if your wastegate isn't up to snuff. I bought an LRBE to test out my wastegate. And since the LRBE wouldn't allow me to adj. boost levels I knew that my wastegate had a blown diaphragm. I personally dont know what an LRBE would be like with a "GOOD" oe wastegate, but before my Wastegate went south it never felt half as nice has my LR wastegate. I REALLY like my LR wastegate.
04-12-2002, 11:17 AM
#38
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I've been following this thread with much interest since a better wastegate is the one item everyone tells me I need I on my car, given all the currents mods. I'm not convinced though.
The PO installed a PH kit, consisting of a K27, Autothority MAF/custom chips/jetted banjo bolt, and 3 bar FPR. I put on a Bursch test pipe, adjustable FPR, and Forge bypass valve. (Oh and btw I replaced the cycling valve.) The car would not produce more than 11psi boost, although this setup is supposed to be good for 15psi. This could be due to the high altitiude I live at (6000ft). It would hold the 11psi to redline though.
I installed a LBE and a stock banjo bolt. At its preset adjustment, boost ramp-up improved, but I saw only 10psi boost. By setting it to its max adjustment, I now see 14psi boost and to redline in 3rd and 4th.
So what is this telling me about the condition of my wastegate? Is the cycling valve still the limiting factor? I'm content with 14psi boost. Is there really anything to gain from a better wastegate at this point?
Gary
89 951
The PO installed a PH kit, consisting of a K27, Autothority MAF/custom chips/jetted banjo bolt, and 3 bar FPR. I put on a Bursch test pipe, adjustable FPR, and Forge bypass valve. (Oh and btw I replaced the cycling valve.) The car would not produce more than 11psi boost, although this setup is supposed to be good for 15psi. This could be due to the high altitiude I live at (6000ft). It would hold the 11psi to redline though.
I installed a LBE and a stock banjo bolt. At its preset adjustment, boost ramp-up improved, but I saw only 10psi boost. By setting it to its max adjustment, I now see 14psi boost and to redline in 3rd and 4th.
So what is this telling me about the condition of my wastegate? Is the cycling valve still the limiting factor? I'm content with 14psi boost. Is there really anything to gain from a better wastegate at this point?
Gary
89 951
04-12-2002, 07:52 PM
#41
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Its not right.You are not understanding that regardless of what kind of pressure signal your wastegate sees from any type of controller, it can still have the exhaust force the valve open early becasue of a weak spring or have some of the exhaust slip by because of a bad valve seat.This will cause the boost to bleed off.
So, if exhaust back pressure limits boost through the wastegate, the wastegate is diaphragm opens in bothdirections? i.e. not a one way check valve? <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
So, if exhaust back pressure limits boost through the wastegate, the wastegate is diaphragm opens in bothdirections? i.e. not a one way check valve? <img src="graemlins/burnout.gif" border="0" alt="[burnout]" />
04-12-2002, 11:01 PM
#42
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I see full boost (now 14psi) by probably 4500rpm and it holds to redline. Don't get me wrong -- the car is plenty fast and spool-up with the LBE is decent. Just curious why I can't get more than 14psi with the LBE adjusted all the way down, and 11psi with the jetted banjo bolt?
I failed to mention the car recently had a Widefire head gasket installed and the head overhauled. The gasket sealing ring on #4 was leaking and pressurizing the coolant. At the time of the leakdown test, the other three cylinders were <5%. Boost behavior was the same before and after the head gasket,etc.
Gary
I failed to mention the car recently had a Widefire head gasket installed and the head overhauled. The gasket sealing ring on #4 was leaking and pressurizing the coolant. At the time of the leakdown test, the other three cylinders were <5%. Boost behavior was the same before and after the head gasket,etc.
Gary
04-12-2002, 11:58 PM
#43
Nordschleife Master
[quote]Originally posted by GaryK:
<strong>I see full boost (now 14psi) by probably 4500rpm and it holds to redline. Gary</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think you at least have a clogged cat or some other similar restriction. 4500rpm isn't right man.
<strong>I see full boost (now 14psi) by probably 4500rpm and it holds to redline. Gary</strong><hr></blockquote>
I think you at least have a clogged cat or some other similar restriction. 4500rpm isn't right man.
04-13-2002, 03:36 AM
#44
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Hey Luke, I just got my car back from my mechanic, and he mentioned that he thinks my car seems to boost a little late, like around 3500+ when it really starts to roll on. I thought it was late, but thought it was normal for the 44 turbo.. you said something about a restriction maybe causing this? Maybe I'll see a change once I finally get around to a custom exhaust/turbo back 3" w/ testpipe.
would there be any other reason i am seeing boost so late?
would there be any other reason i am seeing boost so late?
04-13-2002, 05:16 AM
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[quote]Originally posted by marksportcts:
<strong>This looks nice. It is an Apex'i Racing Wastegate.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Have you installed the wastegate yet? If so, how well does it work? I sell a lot of A'PEXi products on my websites...but no one has bought a wastegate yet...I'm starting to wonder why...
<strong>This looks nice. It is an Apex'i Racing Wastegate.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Have you installed the wastegate yet? If so, how well does it work? I sell a lot of A'PEXi products on my websites...but no one has bought a wastegate yet...I'm starting to wonder why...