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Best way to 300 rwhp

 
Old 12-05-2001, 09:21 PM
  #16  
Luke
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Ski,

Why the koehklin intake. For less money you could have picked up a MAF from modern performance. THey have all the same adjustments as Lindsey's.
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Old 12-05-2001, 09:40 PM
  #17  
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A Morgan (essentially no suspension) is really comfortable on a smooth road too..lol. Don't try telling me increasing the spring rates over 100% makes a car ride VERY comfortable lol.

BTW - hope your buddy has a competent rear setup or that car has got to be a handful in the twisties...250# in the front is about the limit before upgrading the rear.
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Old 12-05-2001, 11:14 PM
  #18  
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Luke,

After you mentioned the MAF from modern performance,,,I called them but got "Yes we have one". No pics or details. I questioned chips etc...just didn't get all my confidence that's all. However I'm interested in your progress. There is also a fellow rennlister who is working on one with Split Second.

Anyway, I bought the Kokeln intake because I wanted to move the air meter over toward the cooler air, TTim didn't make the crossover pc so that his intercooler pipes would fit,,,Kokeln fit the bill. VERY pleased with upgrades. Vision made over 372hp with this setup, Stage V turbo, P&P head, stock cam. I don't recall if they were stage II APE chips or Kokeln software. I'm going to install the turbo and head after New Years.
Then I'll get a few hours of dyno time in Little Rock and see what it will do.
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Old 12-05-2001, 11:50 PM
  #19  
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To obtain 300+ at the rear wheels, it would be worth your time to contact many sources. Have them explain to you exactly what needs to be done with their products and the cost. Better than that, contact some customers, as well. Jon Milledge sells a kit that develops 360 H/P at the flywheel. Due to Porsches' effecient trannys, you'll have way over 300 at the rear. Jon's kit has been developed on the dyno, used by many, and is probably the most one can expect w/relaibilty without changing internals. My 2.5 litre that was built by Jon, dyno'd at 434. Then I dyno'd it at the rear, and it showed 392. Jon's H/P figures are absolutely dead accurate. Similar to the conservative figures that Ruf turbos show. With Jon's kit, you will be as quick as a 993TT, up to 100 or so MPH. His 360 H/P puuls like other builders 500 H/P motors. The motor is reliable and as streetable as the stock one, or better. JMEngines.com
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Old 12-06-2001, 01:51 AM
  #20  
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Just out of curiosity, how much $$$$ did you put into that monster motor? Thanks.

Minh
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Old 12-06-2001, 02:43 AM
  #21  
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To extract a reliable 540 H/P from a 3.1L motor you're going to spend a significant amount of money. If you look at what some of the more well known builders are charging (Lingenfelter, Hennesey, to name a few) my overall cost is a bargain. Virtually everything needs to upgraded. Hand made exhaust, different tranny, fully programable ECU, while not a requirement, allows for further developments (MoTeC), tremendous amount of machine work (tolerances of 1/10,000) and fabricating too. The actual cost of some of the components, such as rods, pistons and valves is not that steep. But, you have to find a good block, a good head (the head work cost about 5 grand, inc. fully radiused valves (exhaust is Nickel-Vac 90), seats, springs, moving the runners, re-welding to correct runner size, altering the combustion chamber, ceramic coating chamber, valves, titanium retainers, special guides, Port/polish, heat treating, etc.) Then, there is value in the builders R&D (virtually all on his many customers race motors). The intake manifold took almost 40 hrs. to assemble. It is very complicated and as sophisticated as current F-1 standards. I was charged for only a fraction of this labor. While the motor was not cheap, I feel that I got more than what I expected, and my expectations were high. I consider myself very skeptical and just because I spent X amount of dollars on a motor does not mean that I got what I paid for. H/P figures, be it on the flywheel dyno, or on the roller dyno (because people have different ways of interpeting and manipulating these figures) does not insure that the desired results. I ran the 1/4 mile three times in warm weather (90F on street 245mm tires, with 34 lbs of air. My best speed through the traps was 131.4 mph, using 1.25 bar boost. This compares well with 600+ H/P Vipers from Hennessey, and within 1 MPH of Lingenfelter's 650 H/P TT. I weighed in at 3020 with 1/2 tank of fuel, an probably another 75 LBS. of unnecessary weight. I believe that in cooler weather, and more boost (1.35) that I can get very close to 135 through the traps.
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Old 12-06-2001, 06:31 AM
  #22  
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Originally posted by 86944turbo:
<STRONG>...My best speed through the traps was 131.4 mph...</STRONG>
That's very quick. I'd be interested to know your ET for that Qtr.
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Old 12-06-2001, 09:39 AM
  #23  
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In reference to Milledge's "360 kit", it sounds like it was a great, reliable setup, but he stopped producing them quite a while ago. I tried for 6 months or so to buy the kit from him and the response from Jon was "I won't do it". He was thinking about developing a replacement kit, but I'm pertty sure he hasn't done it yet.

As far as the comment that the kit "has been used by many", Jon told me he sold a total of 6 kits. I'm not sure that I would consider that "many". But I'd bet it was a quality product none the less.

Best regards.
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Old 12-06-2001, 10:14 AM
  #24  
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aka and others,

I'm sure this topic has been beaten senseless on this and other boards more times than any of us can recount. And I think the only thing that everyone is going to agree on is that many people disagree. For instance...
For a lot of money you can get all the goodies and make that kind of power reliably. This includes a performance rebuilt head with correct studs, wfr headgasket, ball bearing turbo, proper injectors, boost pipes, tunable MAF, real wastegate, lightened flywheel, cat bypass, muffler, etc, etc.
In that paragraph alone, which was expressed at if it were absolute, there are several examples. I've spent a lot of time talking to tuners (probably too much ), and some VERY reliable tuners who have actually been mentioned in this thread believe (1) ball bearing turbo's are a waste of money for our cars, (2)the MAF (any of the common ones) aren't all they are cracked up to be, and (3) there is absolutely nothing wrong with the stock wastegate as long as it isn't worn out, and that goes for 400+ hp applications. Also, 230-240 rwhp from a "normal" turbo with only a chip?? You realize thats probably 285 at the crank, right (a 68 hp increase over stock)? I am not saying it's impossible, but it is very optimistic.

Anyway, my point is there is no "best" way to achieve 300 rwhp, or any other power target for that matter. Everyone has an opinion, and that's all it is - that person's opinion. I am sure I am trying to achieve my goals in a very different manner than others would.

I would just ask that, for the sake of those who haven't done all the research thenselves, when we expess an opinion here we should qualify it as such. And it would be great if the hp claims thrown around were backed up by dyno results and some detailed info on the setup and conditions of the dyno run.

Peace.
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Old 12-06-2001, 11:27 AM
  #25  
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86944Turbo,

Please give us a hint $30K ? More ?
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Old 12-06-2001, 11:51 AM
  #26  
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I sent Jon Milledge an email asking him about the cost and availability of the 360hp kit.

He replied that the kit is no longer available due to inavailability of parts from Garret but he's working on a new kit in the spring based on the same parts he developed for the 360 kit. The kit included fuel pump, regulator, turbo, fuel injectors, chips, heat shield, intake snorkel, adapters, etc. Quite complete. Cost? $3600.

On a semi-related note, his intake manifold with individual throttle bodies for each intake runner is gorgeous!

-Hugh
'86 951
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Old 12-06-2001, 12:29 PM
  #27  
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Hugh,

If you are waiting for a kit, good luck. When I first contacted Jon, the new kit was planned for Fall. Then it got shelved until "sometime over the winter". Now it is "possibly Spring". BTW, the new kit is a hell of a deal if it includes a good fuel pump. I don't think the original kit did. A high quality "racing" pump (Welden etc.)would run around a grand all by itself.
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Old 12-06-2001, 03:10 PM
  #28  
Luke
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Aka,
I know. He figured 400# ers would be sufficient and although its hardly leans, his S2 rides smoother than my 951's stock suspension. I need shocks though.

400#ers in the front are still softer than my 87 rx7 was.
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Old 12-06-2001, 03:16 PM
  #29  
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of course he has the rear setup too. He has coil overs at all corners. (still has torsionn bars) Im not sure what he will be upgrading the rears spring rate to but the fronts are gonna be 600#.

He is prepping his S2 for F stock PCA races.

some of his pics are @
http://www.morissdampers.com/specs/sld01705.htm

he also has an 80% locking diff. It is by no means (not street able)
It is VERY comfotable.
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Old 12-06-2001, 03:18 PM
  #30  
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I absolutely agree it's a good deal if it includes a good fuel pump.

Personally, I'm not holding my breath for the kit. I've just finished sorting out my suspension, I need to buy new tires for next season and am debating 17" rims to accomodate a possible brake upgrade. I've got chips and boost controller and am considering a test pipe but beyond that, power is low on the priority list. It's nice to know he's thinking of introducing a new kit. I like the comprehensive approch his previous kit took and hopefully it will continue in the future.

Hugh
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