engine seized (bottom end) - LONG
01-23-2003, 05:00 AM
#1
Three Wheelin'
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engine seized (bottom end) - LONG
to make a long story short, my life since Jan 1 of this year has been a living hell thanks to my (still despite all this) beloved porsche 951. on the 1st the car was driving like a tractor, turns out I burned a valve (#2 exhaust was <a href="http://forums.rennlist.com/cgi-bin/rennforums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=18;t=003423#000000" target="_blank">TOAST</a>). anyhow, we got the head off, and while everything was apart, I put on a stage2 lindsey racing head (p+p, 5-angle, etc), their intake manifold (QUITE a nice piece of hardware imo), all new vac. and coolant lines, lindsey's custom-made crank-case breather, new wastegate, widefire gasket, 55lb injectors, lindsey maf (i had trouble choosing between that and a guru map kit, in the end, money became the deciding factor, but thus far i like the adjustability of the power-perfect computer the maf came with a lot more than that seemingly confusing link unit), guru chips, and probably a LOT more that i'm forgetting..... stuff like plugs etc...
well anyway, i got the car back together about a week ago, it started up perfectly on the first try, we bled the coolant system, and then i drove it (GENTLY) for about 50 miles (the next day). it was running too rich as was evidenced by the black smoke upon accelerating (and the AFM that comes with the lindsey maf) but it idled better than it ever had, and despite being in need of a lot of tuning, i thought i was all set.
to make a long story short, the next day, it wouldn't start... what i thought was a bad battery or starter turned out much worse. after replacing the battery (even tho it wasn't that bad, i figured, decent sub-$100 insurance) the car still wouldn't start. ok, maybe it's the starter i think. nope. got the starter off the car, tested it and the solinoid clicked and it started spinning.... so at this point i'm getting concerned. we can't turn the motor over by hand, tried with the clutch in in case somehow that was a problem (newly rebuilt tranny but i don't know the condition of the clutch / age)...
anyhow, i start to think this might be very serious, so we pull off the timing belt, and the cam gear moves freely (no, i didn't turn it over, i know these are interference engines, i simply turned it left/right by hand a little to see if somehow the cam could have been locked up and causing this).. anyway to make a long story short the bottom end of the motor is sized, even with a rather sizeable socket and breaker bar i can't get it to turn.
could it be a rod-bearing? main/crank bearing? seized piston / piston-ring? ideas? help?
what are my options? if it turns out to be a piston, can i just get a new sleeve for that one cyl (assuming it's just one) and a new piston if necessary? will the S2 block mate up? what about the 968 3 liter? i'm one of those "if it's apart i might as well take care of a lot of stuff and probably upgrade too" kinda guys, so any ideas i'll be interested in considering... i've already decided that since the cross-over pipe's gotta come off the turbo, that i might as well pull the intake side off too and replace that with a better / new one (preventative maintenace so 16-year-old bearings and oil-seals don't cause me even more headaches later). i've read over the <a href="http://64.226.197.185/Paragon/Tech/944_rod_bearing_replacement.htm" target="_blank"> Rod Bearing Replacement</a>instructions on paragon's site, it seems like something i can do (unless we have to pull the motor to get it taken to a machine shop), now it's just a matter of starting that process, pulling the oil-pan and seeing if, after removing the rod-caps can i move the pistons, what the status of the bearings is, etc...
oh, and i'm pretty sure it is piston-related since we had fuel pressure up way too high and it was most likely washing the oil off the cyl. walls or something (this is of course just based on a phone conversation with dave lindsey - i haven't pulled the pan off yet, that's tomorrow's project most likely).
anyway, as i said, any suggestions would be excellent!
well anyway, i got the car back together about a week ago, it started up perfectly on the first try, we bled the coolant system, and then i drove it (GENTLY) for about 50 miles (the next day). it was running too rich as was evidenced by the black smoke upon accelerating (and the AFM that comes with the lindsey maf) but it idled better than it ever had, and despite being in need of a lot of tuning, i thought i was all set.
to make a long story short, the next day, it wouldn't start... what i thought was a bad battery or starter turned out much worse. after replacing the battery (even tho it wasn't that bad, i figured, decent sub-$100 insurance) the car still wouldn't start. ok, maybe it's the starter i think. nope. got the starter off the car, tested it and the solinoid clicked and it started spinning.... so at this point i'm getting concerned. we can't turn the motor over by hand, tried with the clutch in in case somehow that was a problem (newly rebuilt tranny but i don't know the condition of the clutch / age)...
anyhow, i start to think this might be very serious, so we pull off the timing belt, and the cam gear moves freely (no, i didn't turn it over, i know these are interference engines, i simply turned it left/right by hand a little to see if somehow the cam could have been locked up and causing this).. anyway to make a long story short the bottom end of the motor is sized, even with a rather sizeable socket and breaker bar i can't get it to turn.
could it be a rod-bearing? main/crank bearing? seized piston / piston-ring? ideas? help?
what are my options? if it turns out to be a piston, can i just get a new sleeve for that one cyl (assuming it's just one) and a new piston if necessary? will the S2 block mate up? what about the 968 3 liter? i'm one of those "if it's apart i might as well take care of a lot of stuff and probably upgrade too" kinda guys, so any ideas i'll be interested in considering... i've already decided that since the cross-over pipe's gotta come off the turbo, that i might as well pull the intake side off too and replace that with a better / new one (preventative maintenace so 16-year-old bearings and oil-seals don't cause me even more headaches later). i've read over the <a href="http://64.226.197.185/Paragon/Tech/944_rod_bearing_replacement.htm" target="_blank"> Rod Bearing Replacement</a>instructions on paragon's site, it seems like something i can do (unless we have to pull the motor to get it taken to a machine shop), now it's just a matter of starting that process, pulling the oil-pan and seeing if, after removing the rod-caps can i move the pistons, what the status of the bearings is, etc...
oh, and i'm pretty sure it is piston-related since we had fuel pressure up way too high and it was most likely washing the oil off the cyl. walls or something (this is of course just based on a phone conversation with dave lindsey - i haven't pulled the pan off yet, that's tomorrow's project most likely).
anyway, as i said, any suggestions would be excellent!
01-23-2003, 05:48 AM
#2
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So you parked the car and it was fine, next morning it would NOT even turn the slightest bit?
How did you check to see if the cam moved, I'm curious (with the belt on, and by hand?).
I think that you might have lodged something between the flywheel and block or something to that effect. An engine siezing overnight doesn't seem very likely... Sorry about the misfortune though.
Ahmet
How did you check to see if the cam moved, I'm curious (with the belt on, and by hand?).
I think that you might have lodged something between the flywheel and block or something to that effect. An engine siezing overnight doesn't seem very likely... Sorry about the misfortune though.
Ahmet
01-23-2003, 06:00 AM
#3
Race Director
The fuel-pressure may have been so high that it leaked into one of the cylinders, filling it completely full of gas. I've actually bought a practically brand-new motorcycle for free with 1k-miles on it where the owner thought he seized the rings. I was ready for a completely tear-down and rebuild, only to find that the petcock valve was leaky and dumped the entire gas-tank through the carbs into the engine. Even completely filled up the crankcase too, so those pistons weren't moving anywhere!
Pull the plugs and see what it looks like down there. Drop a rag in and swirl it around to see if you pull out gas, oil or something worse.
Pull the plugs and see what it looks like down there. Drop a rag in and swirl it around to see if you pull out gas, oil or something worse.
01-23-2003, 10:39 AM
#4
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">The fuel-pressure may have been so high that it leaked into one of the cylinders, filling it completely full of gas</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">I was thinking the same thing. Hydrolocked. Pull the plugs and see what is down in there.
01-23-2003, 04:13 PM
#6
Three Wheelin'
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gonna look at it tonight, i was thinking it was hydrolocked, but wouldn't it turn over if the plugs were out (with the starter motor)?
btw, Ahmet, the cam turned with the belt off - nothing turned with the belt on because of the bottom end not turning.
i'm gonna look down in the plug holes, put a rag down there to see what comes out if i see any sort of liquid, etc... god i hope it's something as simple as that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
btw, Ahmet, the cam turned with the belt off - nothing turned with the belt on because of the bottom end not turning.
i'm gonna look down in the plug holes, put a rag down there to see what comes out if i see any sort of liquid, etc... god i hope it's something as simple as that <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="frown.gif" />
01-23-2003, 05:02 PM
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maybe the starter seized up when you cranked it, and the pinion wont retract....try smacking the starter with rubber mallet.
can yo hear the solenoid working when you try to crank it?
can yo hear the solenoid working when you try to crank it?
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01-23-2003, 05:31 PM
#8
Three Wheelin'
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i heard it click. i pulled the starter off, tested it, i can get it to click find, and i can get it to spin after it clicks into place fine. so it's not the starter. and the motor can't be turned over by hand even with the starter off and the clutch pedal depressed, etc...
01-23-2003, 05:37 PM
#9
Three Wheelin'
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You need one of these... I know I do:
<img src="http://www.provision100.com/images/homeart/pv_wbox2.gif" alt=" - " />
<a href="http://www.provision100.com/" target="_blank">http://www.provision100.com/</a>
Looks like the 18" model is available for about $200 from some tool vendors.
<img src="http://www.provision100.com/images/homeart/pv_wbox2.gif" alt=" - " />
<a href="http://www.provision100.com/" target="_blank">http://www.provision100.com/</a>
Looks like the 18" model is available for about $200 from some tool vendors.
01-24-2003, 02:16 AM
#12
Race Director
Does anyone have a way to snap a photo of what you see through these things? I just might have to spring for one of the electronic versions that can display on a TV screen...
01-24-2003, 03:42 AM
#13
Three Wheelin'
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">Originally posted by Peckster:
<strong>Or ask your doctor if you can borrow a colonoscopy device.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">i donno, after all this frustration, it feels to me like i've had a torque-wrench shoved... er, nevermind
didn't get a chance to even look @ the car tonight, it took all night for us to pull it up the driveway into the garage (stupid snow - that's it, i'm moving to florida or texas or cali). i'm actually likely not going to have time to look at it much til monday (rather, if we have to drop the oil pan it will be then at the soonest)...
btw, if it is something that isn't simple (i really don't see how it could be hydrolocked -- i mean why couldn't i turn it over by hand if the plugs are all out?? also, if it was a rod bearing, wouldn't it still turn over just be clanking / nasty?) anyway, if it IS a piston seized up in the bore or something, i am thinking i'd need to replace that sleeve (preferable imo to boring all 4 and getting 4 new pistons, etc) - is that possible? also, any sources for re-man or used but good condition / rebuildable short-blocks?
if i have to get a short block, any word/info/ideas about going with a 2.7 or 3.0 bottom-end? i've spent sooooo much on the car thus far, i'm kinda of the mindset of "lets go all out and do this right and not have to worry about it later" - also, what turbo should i get, i decided, if those bolts have to come off the darned thing to pull the oil pan, well, it's not going back on unless the hot side looks PRISTINE (the cold side looked clean enough and had little/no play but i would like more power and don't want to chance anything as there's no real history that i know of, ie is it new or rebuilt or original etc).
well, time for some Ayinger Ur-Weisse and some sleep... <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> (amazing how the germans don't just excel at cars... and at least bier doesn't need a shop manual lol)
<strong>Or ask your doctor if you can borrow a colonoscopy device.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana,Tahoma,Arial,Helvetica,Geneva">i donno, after all this frustration, it feels to me like i've had a torque-wrench shoved... er, nevermind
didn't get a chance to even look @ the car tonight, it took all night for us to pull it up the driveway into the garage (stupid snow - that's it, i'm moving to florida or texas or cali). i'm actually likely not going to have time to look at it much til monday (rather, if we have to drop the oil pan it will be then at the soonest)...
btw, if it is something that isn't simple (i really don't see how it could be hydrolocked -- i mean why couldn't i turn it over by hand if the plugs are all out?? also, if it was a rod bearing, wouldn't it still turn over just be clanking / nasty?) anyway, if it IS a piston seized up in the bore or something, i am thinking i'd need to replace that sleeve (preferable imo to boring all 4 and getting 4 new pistons, etc) - is that possible? also, any sources for re-man or used but good condition / rebuildable short-blocks?
if i have to get a short block, any word/info/ideas about going with a 2.7 or 3.0 bottom-end? i've spent sooooo much on the car thus far, i'm kinda of the mindset of "lets go all out and do this right and not have to worry about it later" - also, what turbo should i get, i decided, if those bolts have to come off the darned thing to pull the oil pan, well, it's not going back on unless the hot side looks PRISTINE (the cold side looked clean enough and had little/no play but i would like more power and don't want to chance anything as there's no real history that i know of, ie is it new or rebuilt or original etc).
well, time for some Ayinger Ur-Weisse and some sleep... <img border="0" alt="[cheers]" title="" src="graemlins/beerchug.gif" /> (amazing how the germans don't just excel at cars... and at least bier doesn't need a shop manual lol)
01-24-2003, 06:04 AM
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ok it's 5am, the beer isn't making the sleep come on any easier, without trying to dump my feelings on everyone here, well.... when do you give up?
when does one part a car and take a huge loss?
or when does one say "i'm in over my head" and get it towed to a shop or at least ship out a motor?
i just don't know what to do at this point, i'm so frustrated, it feels like i was so close to having the car done, and now this... my goal is to have a 320-350rwhp strong RELIABLE fun street car that i can later spend $$/time on suspension+brakes and track (i love autox and want to do DE etc but can't afford track time / insurance).
I've spent approx 11 on the car, 4 on a trans rebuild + quaife, and probably another 10-12 (maybe as little as 8, it's sad but i haven't even added up all the little reciepts for $20 in bolts here, 30 in hose clamps there, 200 in hoses yet another place etc). at this point, that nearly $25-30k could have bought me quite a few cars that would be CLOSE to my goal power/performance wise... but i love my 951, and it's more of a "damnit i'm GONNA do this" thing at this point. i've put so much sweat/blood/tears/money/soul into the car, i really want to see it back on the street, but i'm really at wit's end........
when does one part a car and take a huge loss?
or when does one say "i'm in over my head" and get it towed to a shop or at least ship out a motor?
i just don't know what to do at this point, i'm so frustrated, it feels like i was so close to having the car done, and now this... my goal is to have a 320-350rwhp strong RELIABLE fun street car that i can later spend $$/time on suspension+brakes and track (i love autox and want to do DE etc but can't afford track time / insurance).
I've spent approx 11 on the car, 4 on a trans rebuild + quaife, and probably another 10-12 (maybe as little as 8, it's sad but i haven't even added up all the little reciepts for $20 in bolts here, 30 in hose clamps there, 200 in hoses yet another place etc). at this point, that nearly $25-30k could have bought me quite a few cars that would be CLOSE to my goal power/performance wise... but i love my 951, and it's more of a "damnit i'm GONNA do this" thing at this point. i've put so much sweat/blood/tears/money/soul into the car, i really want to see it back on the street, but i'm really at wit's end........
01-24-2003, 09:22 AM
#15
Burning Brakes
Just think how happy you'll be when you finish it and drive it for the first time. It will all be worth it then. If you need to, go drive a friend's 944 to remind you as to why you chose this car to fix up. Don't give up man! It's worth it!