16v vs 8v head turbo application - max static compression ?
#61
Nordschleife Master
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Hmm... Spending such a fortune and involving such a debauchery of technology into an engine that certainly won't see much if any consistent road use and will probably end up being near undriveable pretty much belongs to kindergarten stuff.
What is this guy doing with his car once it's up & running and he's made his point after a couple of glory dyno runs?
As much as I appreciate that sort of shiny, super lightweight parts and the one-of-a-kind effort, let's keep real.
What is this guy doing with his car once it's up & running and he's made his point after a couple of glory dyno runs?
As much as I appreciate that sort of shiny, super lightweight parts and the one-of-a-kind effort, let's keep real.
#62
Nordschleife Master
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Numbers for those interested in comparing stuff:
996 Turbo, 9.4:1 compression. 0.8 bar stock boost and usually 1.2 bar with a regular reflash.
997 turbo, 9.8:1 compression. 1.0 bar stock boost and 1.2 bar overboost stock.
Evo X, 9.0:1 CR. Over 1.4 bar stock boost (max in midrange, tapers down).
IMHO it's better to compare a 16v turbo to the engines above than a 3.0l 8v engine..
996 Turbo, 9.4:1 compression. 0.8 bar stock boost and usually 1.2 bar with a regular reflash.
997 turbo, 9.8:1 compression. 1.0 bar stock boost and 1.2 bar overboost stock.
Evo X, 9.0:1 CR. Over 1.4 bar stock boost (max in midrange, tapers down).
IMHO it's better to compare a 16v turbo to the engines above than a 3.0l 8v engine..
#64
Nordschleife Master
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If someone likes dragracing and builds something suitable for it, that's fine by me but maybe I'm more open minded and tolerant than you are to opinions and believes that differs from my own
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#66
Nordschleife Master
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![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Here's another, even more useless engine for your kindergarten collection
![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
May I present the BMW M12/13-1, 1.5l cyl 1000+ hp 5,5 bar turbo... About 300 hp at 8000 rpm and 1000+ hp at 11000. Who the hell designed that crap
![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
http://www.gurneyflap.com/bmwturbof1engine.html
#67
Race Car
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I may be wrong. I may be dead wrong. But from what is shown on forums, it looks more like belt, suspenders, bailing wire, and duct tape to hold up a pair of pants. This engineer isn't impressed.
#68
Nordschleife Master
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67King, maybe you're right. Maybe they don't know much about anything and doesn't deserve to be called engineers. But getting those results with that kind of power/displacement ratio, developing their own turbos, blocks, cylinder heads and cams etc, and actually managing to get it to work is a hell of a lot more technically interesting and closer to real engineering in my book than any of the builds seen here. I thought even a pro engineer like yourself should appreciate that.
#69
Race Car
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67King, maybe you're right. Maybe they don't know much about anything and doesn't deserve to be called engineers. But getting those results with that kind of power/displacement ratio, developing their own turbos, blocks, cylinder heads and cams etc, and actually managing to get it to work is a hell of a lot more technically interesting and closer to real engineering in my book than any of the builds seen here. I thought even a pro engineer like yourself should appreciate that.
I admire what they do. Shoot, I'd love to have the ability to do that. I'm just saying that I don't see what I think of as engineering in what they do.
#70
Nordschleife Master
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You are of course right, nothing can compare to the OEM engineering, but then again they have a liiiiittle more budget ![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
And in the end, that's mostly what's controlling the results.
![Wink](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/wink.gif)
And in the end, that's mostly what's controlling the results.
#71
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Not by cup of tea but if you want to watch it I'm happy for you ![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Here's another, even more useless engine for your kindergarten collection![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
May I present the BMW M12/13-1, 1.5l cyl 1000+ hp 5,5 bar turbo... About 300 hp at 8000 rpm and 1000+ hp at 11000. Who the hell designed that crap![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
http://www.gurneyflap.com/bmwturbof1engine.html
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
Here's another, even more useless engine for your kindergarten collection
![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
May I present the BMW M12/13-1, 1.5l cyl 1000+ hp 5,5 bar turbo... About 300 hp at 8000 rpm and 1000+ hp at 11000. Who the hell designed that crap
![Big Grin](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/biggrin.gif)
http://www.gurneyflap.com/bmwturbof1engine.html
You actually make my point with the example of this BMW engine, as the progress made by major manufacturers through racing (F1 and endurance racing) often make their way to the mass produced cars = real life applications.
Do you think they blow that much money for fun and/or to satisfy the ego of some obscure programm manager?
67King has given hints on the mass production process, which I grew to like when I worked for a major French car manufacturer. The people who do engine developments by putting scientific/physical datas against each other (which is I think what you refer to as "engineering") are a small part of the whole engineering and contribute no more no less to the whole process than other engineers.
#72
Nordschleife Master
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Not sure why you sound so defensive and sarcastic.
You actually make my point with the example of this BMW engine, as the progress made by major manufacturers through racing (F1 and endurance racing) often make their way to the mass produced cars = real life applications.
Do you think they blow that much money for fun and/or to satisfy the ego of some obscure programm manager?
67King has given hints on the mass production process, which I grew to like when I worked for a major French car manufacturer. The people who do engine developments by putting scientific/physical datas against each other (which is I think what you refer to as "engineering") are a small part of the whole engineering and contribute no more no less to the whole process than other engineers.
You actually make my point with the example of this BMW engine, as the progress made by major manufacturers through racing (F1 and endurance racing) often make their way to the mass produced cars = real life applications.
Do you think they blow that much money for fun and/or to satisfy the ego of some obscure programm manager?
67King has given hints on the mass production process, which I grew to like when I worked for a major French car manufacturer. The people who do engine developments by putting scientific/physical datas against each other (which is I think what you refer to as "engineering") are a small part of the whole engineering and contribute no more no less to the whole process than other engineers.
Spending such a fortune and involving such a debauchery of technology into an engine that certainly won't see much if any consistent road use and will probably end up being near undriveable pretty much belongs to kindergarten stuff.
An engineering viewpoint has value if it finds its way into a pragmatic, real-life application. This project doesn't apply.
So just because someone develops something that doesn't end up in a real life application for the average joe, it "doesn't apply" for an interesting engineering project?
To me, great engineering is the best results with a given set of parameters.
In this case; a set of parameters not far from the old F1 turbo engines. I'm sure those engineers couldn't care less of how their engines would impact everyday cars in 10 years. Their goal was to create the "fastest" engine with the set rules. And I'm sure I'm not the only one who is fascinated by those engines.
#73
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Duke, I miserably apologise for being a victim of my working habits and for not being able to restrict my vision to the sheer scientific beauty of this "stunning" project.
I most probably won't ever be a true motor geek, regardess how much effort I put into this.
No offense taken for your personal comments, btw.
I most probably won't ever be a true motor geek, regardess how much effort I put into this.
No offense taken for your personal comments, btw.
#74
Rennlist Member
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...er I think this has got off track to a degree or 3. We're not comparing apples to apples here. OEM vs guys building i4 944s vs drag cars vs whatever else...
The OEM application is great but it's never built for high performance unless a Ferramborsche type manufacturer. I think if you took the guy making the drag Evos and asked him to build up a Road Race motor he'd come up with something pretty compelling. I haven't seen anyone doing this stuff on our cars...yet? Kudos where it's due in my books even though I have little interest in 1/4 mile stuff, none in the '3 honks and mash the throttle' stuff that the kids do.
I have to agree that most of the stuff done in here is pretty basic compared to other formats. Not criticising anyone's knowledge or abilities. There just isn't the same wide interest and budgets for 944s.
The OEM application is great but it's never built for high performance unless a Ferramborsche type manufacturer. I think if you took the guy making the drag Evos and asked him to build up a Road Race motor he'd come up with something pretty compelling. I haven't seen anyone doing this stuff on our cars...yet? Kudos where it's due in my books even though I have little interest in 1/4 mile stuff, none in the '3 honks and mash the throttle' stuff that the kids do.
I have to agree that most of the stuff done in here is pretty basic compared to other formats. Not criticising anyone's knowledge or abilities. There just isn't the same wide interest and budgets for 944s.
#75
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Originally Posted by Chris White
The link to the super duper engine – 200hp at 5k rpm…..yeah, that’s what I want. I will applaud all the work they did but since I am not a person that measures engine performance in 8 second intervals….I have no use for it! Take all the work they did and compare it to a top fuel engine (its the same sport) and they come up about 6000hp short!
It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I don't think you give that firm the credit they deserve. IMHO all engines on RL are kindergarten stuff compared to some of their builds.
Oh, and 200 hp at 5k rpm sure is a whole lot better for a track engine if it revs 11k+ rpm than any 944/968 engine build![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
The link to the super duper engine – 200hp at 5k rpm…..yeah, that’s what I want. I will applaud all the work they did but since I am not a person that measures engine performance in 8 second intervals….I have no use for it! Take all the work they did and compare it to a top fuel engine (its the same sport) and they come up about 6000hp short!
It might not be everyone's cup of tea, but I don't think you give that firm the credit they deserve. IMHO all engines on RL are kindergarten stuff compared to some of their builds.
Oh, and 200 hp at 5k rpm sure is a whole lot better for a track engine if it revs 11k+ rpm than any 944/968 engine build
![Smilie](https://rennlist.com/forums/images/smilies/smile.gif)
One of the reasons that I like the 944/968s is that you can get quite good track performance for the dollar. The 944 fills a great niche in track use, its well-balanced for power, handling and braking. If I saw somebody doing a similar build as the ‘super duper’ engine for a 944 I would have a similar reaction – I just don’t see the point. $31,000 for a crankshaft…..$3250 for each rod (and the rods have a life expectancy of 120 hours)…..
Sure, I’ll give them credit for some really nice high end fabrication….for a budget is pretty much unlimited!