Fast spooling turbo with xtra power is it possible?
08-18-2010, 03:17 PM
#1
Fast spooling turbo with xtra power is it possible?
350-375hp quick spool.
I Have wanted these parameters from the beginning, still waiting for the vitesse 2r to be completed on a fresh quality rebuild. This is the second turbo in the 1st 1,000 miles. Spared no expense but car feels slower than my stock 89 w/chip.
But people are saying you now, can not have both fast factory type spoolup with 350-400hp? Must there be a sacrifice on low end? Did Porsche have the best design 21 years ago?
I am frustrated at this point, ready to go back to stock. Any comments welcome.
I Have wanted these parameters from the beginning, still waiting for the vitesse 2r to be completed on a fresh quality rebuild. This is the second turbo in the 1st 1,000 miles. Spared no expense but car feels slower than my stock 89 w/chip.
But people are saying you now, can not have both fast factory type spoolup with 350-400hp? Must there be a sacrifice on low end? Did Porsche have the best design 21 years ago?
I am frustrated at this point, ready to go back to stock. Any comments welcome.
08-18-2010, 03:50 PM
#3
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Bob, the first turbo you had, was not a Vitesse turbo so I cannot comment on it.
A few things that will help others in order to give you a good recommendation.
You are running a performance camshaft, which 99% of the time will push the powerband to the right and will delay spoolup. Add to it that your boost control is not setup correctly, and the car is running rich as it was richened via the PB in order not to hurt it while configuring the boost. And the ignition is set on the mild side for the obvious reasons.
Even with the above, the S2R you have now, based on data logs you have sent, is starting to make boost at 2300-2400rpm, hitting 1 bar boost at 3200rpm. (which can be brought down even more).
Once setup correctly and fine tuned, a stock 951 will be a joke in comparison when running the same boost..
It'll be interesting to compare apples to apples..
A few things that will help others in order to give you a good recommendation.
You are running a performance camshaft, which 99% of the time will push the powerband to the right and will delay spoolup. Add to it that your boost control is not setup correctly, and the car is running rich as it was richened via the PB in order not to hurt it while configuring the boost. And the ignition is set on the mild side for the obvious reasons.
Even with the above, the S2R you have now, based on data logs you have sent, is starting to make boost at 2300-2400rpm, hitting 1 bar boost at 3200rpm. (which can be brought down even more).
Once setup correctly and fine tuned, a stock 951 will be a joke in comparison when running the same boost..
It'll be interesting to compare apples to apples..
08-18-2010, 06:46 PM
#4
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If you get it tuned properly, it will be fast.
I also have the S2R. My problem is it spools TOO FAST. As boost comes on in 1st gear, the tires just spin when the car hits 3500-4000rpm.
I don't think it is even tuned perfectly yet (havent spent much time). The one thing I will say is that driving it it FEELS slower than when I had a K27/6 in the car. It is more linear feeling and doesnt spike so the feeling is slower.
However, i used dynolicous (iphone app) to measure the acceleration. The K27/6 made about 0.6g acceleration and the S2R made over 0.7g.
-Dana
I also have the S2R. My problem is it spools TOO FAST. As boost comes on in 1st gear, the tires just spin when the car hits 3500-4000rpm.
I don't think it is even tuned perfectly yet (havent spent much time). The one thing I will say is that driving it it FEELS slower than when I had a K27/6 in the car. It is more linear feeling and doesnt spike so the feeling is slower.
However, i used dynolicous (iphone app) to measure the acceleration. The K27/6 made about 0.6g acceleration and the S2R made over 0.7g.
-Dana
08-18-2010, 11:03 PM
#5
John,
As we discussed I had such a bad experience with the first one after waiting 18 months for project completion and dropping big dollars into the project.
No fault of yours but since the shop has had the Vitsse stuff it's been over three months and my first drive was not a great one. So i am hoping the tuning can get done accurately by the shop.
As for the cam it is a mystery to me I have asked for the specs half dozen times still don't know what it is. But we should address it. Trying to be patient and feel like I am timing the progress with a calender(not your fault).
But now the shop is talking smaller turbo etc. I never really knew getting into it in the planning that there would have to be a sacrifice in the low to mid power band.
I do feel if we can not get some resolution I have to change shops as it has been 2 years overall in the making. No enjoyment, ton of stress, ton of cash way to many phone conversations, very little driving etc.
Dana:
I read your intial impressions back in March and was part of my decision in the purchase.
I am a fan of less linear and more feel, and I think from what John has said we can adjust for that.
Thanks for the input.
As we discussed I had such a bad experience with the first one after waiting 18 months for project completion and dropping big dollars into the project.
No fault of yours but since the shop has had the Vitsse stuff it's been over three months and my first drive was not a great one. So i am hoping the tuning can get done accurately by the shop.
As for the cam it is a mystery to me I have asked for the specs half dozen times still don't know what it is. But we should address it. Trying to be patient and feel like I am timing the progress with a calender(not your fault).
But now the shop is talking smaller turbo etc. I never really knew getting into it in the planning that there would have to be a sacrifice in the low to mid power band.
I do feel if we can not get some resolution I have to change shops as it has been 2 years overall in the making. No enjoyment, ton of stress, ton of cash way to many phone conversations, very little driving etc.
Dana:
I read your intial impressions back in March and was part of my decision in the purchase.
I am a fan of less linear and more feel, and I think from what John has said we can adjust for that.
Thanks for the input.
Bob, the first turbo you had, was not a Vitesse turbo so I cannot comment on it.
A few things that will help others in order to give you a good recommendation.
You are running a performance camshaft, which 99% of the time will push the powerband to the right and will delay spoolup. Add to it that your boost control is not setup correctly, and the car is running rich as it was richened via the PB in order not to hurt it while configuring the boost. And the ignition is set on the mild side for the obvious reasons.
Even with the above, the S2R you have now, based on data logs you have sent, is starting to make boost at 2300-2400rpm, hitting 1 bar boost at 3200rpm. (which can be brought down even more).
Once setup correctly and fine tuned, a stock 951 will be a joke in comparison when running the same boost..
It'll be interesting to compare apples to apples..
A few things that will help others in order to give you a good recommendation.
You are running a performance camshaft, which 99% of the time will push the powerband to the right and will delay spoolup. Add to it that your boost control is not setup correctly, and the car is running rich as it was richened via the PB in order not to hurt it while configuring the boost. And the ignition is set on the mild side for the obvious reasons.
Even with the above, the S2R you have now, based on data logs you have sent, is starting to make boost at 2300-2400rpm, hitting 1 bar boost at 3200rpm. (which can be brought down even more).
Once setup correctly and fine tuned, a stock 951 will be a joke in comparison when running the same boost..
It'll be interesting to compare apples to apples..
08-18-2010, 11:11 PM
#6
Rennlist Member
John,
As we discussed I had such a bad experience with the first one after waiting 18 months for project completion and dropping big dollars into the project.
No fault of yours but since the shop has had the Vitsse stuff it's been over three months and my first drive was not a great one. So i am hoping the tuning can get done accurately by the shop.
As for the cam it is a mystery to me I have asked for the specs half dozen times still don't know what it is. But we should address it. Trying to be patient and feel like I am timing the progress with a calender(not your fault).
But now the shop is talking smaller turbo etc. I never really knew getting into it in the planning that there would have to be a sacrifice in the low to mid power band.
I do feel if we can not get some resolution I have to change shops as it has been 2 years overall in the making. No enjoyment, ton of stress, ton of cash to many phone conversations etc.
Dana:
I read your intial impressions back in March and was part of my decision in the purchase.
I am a fan of less linear and more feel, and I think from what John has said we can adjust for that.
Thanks for the input.
As we discussed I had such a bad experience with the first one after waiting 18 months for project completion and dropping big dollars into the project.
No fault of yours but since the shop has had the Vitsse stuff it's been over three months and my first drive was not a great one. So i am hoping the tuning can get done accurately by the shop.
As for the cam it is a mystery to me I have asked for the specs half dozen times still don't know what it is. But we should address it. Trying to be patient and feel like I am timing the progress with a calender(not your fault).
But now the shop is talking smaller turbo etc. I never really knew getting into it in the planning that there would have to be a sacrifice in the low to mid power band.
I do feel if we can not get some resolution I have to change shops as it has been 2 years overall in the making. No enjoyment, ton of stress, ton of cash to many phone conversations etc.
Dana:
I read your intial impressions back in March and was part of my decision in the purchase.
I am a fan of less linear and more feel, and I think from what John has said we can adjust for that.
Thanks for the input.
08-18-2010, 11:26 PM
#7
Yes I have done many searches on his products prior to purchase (majority good), as the first turbo put on the car was really bad.
The car is in Florida now, from what John tells me the tuning time is minimal I know the shop can handle it if they can devote consistent time to getting it done and the two vendors communicate. It has just been a long road with no end in site. My other issue is smoke the car has been smoking somewhat before the PB was installed so that has to be resolved.
My original goal was to get 350-375 hp from the car the way we configured the build. Same character as the 89 but more power. There was never any talk of sacrifice or the car talking off slower or performing worse in any area.
The drive train is form a 951S with everything replaced most brand new Porsche parts and some more modern stuff. The quality of install perfect.
I have driven the car 3 times after rebuild and install each time the car is not even close to the pull of my 89 which has a stock engine never opened 80k miles 40 track days etc.
The car is in Florida now, from what John tells me the tuning time is minimal I know the shop can handle it if they can devote consistent time to getting it done and the two vendors communicate. It has just been a long road with no end in site. My other issue is smoke the car has been smoking somewhat before the PB was installed so that has to be resolved.
My original goal was to get 350-375 hp from the car the way we configured the build. Same character as the 89 but more power. There was never any talk of sacrifice or the car talking off slower or performing worse in any area.
The drive train is form a 951S with everything replaced most brand new Porsche parts and some more modern stuff. The quality of install perfect.
I have driven the car 3 times after rebuild and install each time the car is not even close to the pull of my 89 which has a stock engine never opened 80k miles 40 track days etc.
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08-18-2010, 11:55 PM
#8
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I think its more about the the rest of the car then people realize a good example i saw recently on a supra forum a guy who picked up 80hp at 3000 rpm by camming and porting and tuning his engine with the same turbo ..and it was big like gt40 or similar...
I think with good fuel and good engine control thats available I think 9:1 is a better comp ratio than 8:1 and makes for a more responsive engine..
I think with good fuel and good engine control thats available I think 9:1 is a better comp ratio than 8:1 and makes for a more responsive engine..
08-19-2010, 04:15 AM
#9
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Something is clearly wrong with the setup. When you say each time you drive the car it is horrible, describe what you're feeling. Is it just really linear and no kick? Is the boost ramping up normally? Sounds almost like you're running off the spring? I had a VR Stage V turbo in a 2.5L motor that was meant for a 3L project and it was driveable enough to live with for some time. I've been in and driven my mechanic's car often enough and it spools very well. VR S3. The VR 2R should spin up like a top so there is something wrong in the setup, not the turbo. See if there are any experienced Rennlisters in your area and just take your car there for a look-see. You never know what might be totally apparent to them vs your current shop...
Where did the cam come from also? Was it installed in your car already or did your shop install it? Does it need an adj cam wheel and therefore it's completely out of sync at TDC?
Where did the cam come from also? Was it installed in your car already or did your shop install it? Does it need an adj cam wheel and therefore it's completely out of sync at TDC?
08-19-2010, 07:10 AM
#11
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A couple of thoughts –
Once you get to really tuning the car with the stage 2 turbo you will need a stop watch to confirm what it really going on. The stage 2 turbo on my old street car did not ‘feel’ as powerful as the previous turbo – but that was because it was much smoother in building boost. Once I measured the acceleration times and more importantly (to me anyway!) the increased RPM at the end of the straights at the track the additional power was much more evident.
Your 89 engine maybe stock internally but it was putting out some pretty decent power and running fairly high boost when we dynode it early this year. At lower PRM and at equal boost levels do not expect a huge difference in power. The K26/8 is at a nice point in its efficiency range at lower RPM and 15-20 lbs of boost. The big difference is when the RPMs come up - then the K26/8 will fall off quite a bit.
Keep in mind that the internals of the engine (for the most part) do not make more power – they need to be able to support the additional power being made by the changes to the induction (turbo, cam and head work) and engine management systems (tuning).
I know you might hate to hear this since you have spent quite a bit on the project – but a 2.5 engine running at the same boost will have a similar torque output (+/- 10%) as long as the system is within its efficiency range. The old K26/8 is right in its sweet spot at lower rpms – it will be hard to make a huge improvement. Above 4500 rpm the stage 2 will show a huge improvement – but that will not be evident in the initial ‘feel’ of power.
Once you get to really tuning the car with the stage 2 turbo you will need a stop watch to confirm what it really going on. The stage 2 turbo on my old street car did not ‘feel’ as powerful as the previous turbo – but that was because it was much smoother in building boost. Once I measured the acceleration times and more importantly (to me anyway!) the increased RPM at the end of the straights at the track the additional power was much more evident.
Your 89 engine maybe stock internally but it was putting out some pretty decent power and running fairly high boost when we dynode it early this year. At lower PRM and at equal boost levels do not expect a huge difference in power. The K26/8 is at a nice point in its efficiency range at lower RPM and 15-20 lbs of boost. The big difference is when the RPMs come up - then the K26/8 will fall off quite a bit.
Keep in mind that the internals of the engine (for the most part) do not make more power – they need to be able to support the additional power being made by the changes to the induction (turbo, cam and head work) and engine management systems (tuning).
I know you might hate to hear this since you have spent quite a bit on the project – but a 2.5 engine running at the same boost will have a similar torque output (+/- 10%) as long as the system is within its efficiency range. The old K26/8 is right in its sweet spot at lower rpms – it will be hard to make a huge improvement. Above 4500 rpm the stage 2 will show a huge improvement – but that will not be evident in the initial ‘feel’ of power.
08-19-2010, 09:23 AM
#13
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08-19-2010, 09:36 AM
#14
As for my driving experience with the project.
1. First time delivery of the car (break in) the car was supposed to be running 14 psi but it was found to be running only 4psi. A relief and easy fix but a bit disappointing after all the work and expectation.
2. Got the car back with the proper boost, drove it 30 miles (10 City/20hwy) this was the first real impression of the car. Around town it lacked the torque or kick that I was used to in the 89. On the highway getting on it staying under 6k boost was coming in way late the kick felt like it was around 5 to 5,200 almost time to shift. This was with the super 53 turbo.
3. Last drive with the V2R the shop said it was 95% with a little fine tuning I ran it against my 89 2nd gear 2,200 and the stock car pulled away easily. Then driving the car for about 30 miles on my own, it just felt slower than the original. Considering all that was done for me it is a huge question mark with no answers yet, speculation on the part of the shop. I found out after the car was not tuned as it should be, learning curve software etc. for the shop.
Here is what was done to the car:
• Engine M44 Turbo S engine complete removal & rebuild
o HD connecting rods
o Knife edged cross drilled crank
o Main bearing set
o Oil pump
o Valve job
o Sleeved cylinders
o Oversize Porsche pistons
o Porsche ring set
o Reworked head for flow
Performance Cam
o Shaved block w new studs
o Baffled oil pan
o Super 53 Turbo
o 3” exhaust w cat delete
o Turbo cup clutch
o Lightened flywheel
o Enlarged throttle body
o Enlarged intercooler
o New fuel injectors
o New water pump & thermostat
o New belts seals and wires
o Performance software
3" fabspeed exhaust no cat
1. First time delivery of the car (break in) the car was supposed to be running 14 psi but it was found to be running only 4psi. A relief and easy fix but a bit disappointing after all the work and expectation.
2. Got the car back with the proper boost, drove it 30 miles (10 City/20hwy) this was the first real impression of the car. Around town it lacked the torque or kick that I was used to in the 89. On the highway getting on it staying under 6k boost was coming in way late the kick felt like it was around 5 to 5,200 almost time to shift. This was with the super 53 turbo.
3. Last drive with the V2R the shop said it was 95% with a little fine tuning I ran it against my 89 2nd gear 2,200 and the stock car pulled away easily. Then driving the car for about 30 miles on my own, it just felt slower than the original. Considering all that was done for me it is a huge question mark with no answers yet, speculation on the part of the shop. I found out after the car was not tuned as it should be, learning curve software etc. for the shop.
Here is what was done to the car:
• Engine M44 Turbo S engine complete removal & rebuild
o HD connecting rods
o Knife edged cross drilled crank
o Main bearing set
o Oil pump
o Valve job
o Sleeved cylinders
o Oversize Porsche pistons
o Porsche ring set
o Reworked head for flow
Performance Cam
o Shaved block w new studs
o Baffled oil pan
o Super 53 Turbo
o 3” exhaust w cat delete
o Turbo cup clutch
o Lightened flywheel
o Enlarged throttle body
o Enlarged intercooler
o New fuel injectors
o New water pump & thermostat
o New belts seals and wires
o Performance software
3" fabspeed exhaust no cat
Something is clearly wrong with the setup. When you say each time you drive the car it is horrible, describe what you're feeling. Is it just really linear and no kick? Is the boost ramping up normally? Sounds almost like you're running off the spring? I had a VR Stage V turbo in a 2.5L motor that was meant for a 3L project and it was driveable enough to live with for some time. I've been in and driven my mechanic's car often enough and it spools very well. VR S3. The VR 2R should spin up like a top so there is something wrong in the setup, not the turbo. See if there are any experienced Rennlisters in your area and just take your car there for a look-see. You never know what might be totally apparent to them vs your current shop...
Where did the cam come from also? Was it installed in your car already or did your shop install it? Does it need an adj cam wheel and therefore it's completely out of sync at TDC?
Where did the cam come from also? Was it installed in your car already or did your shop install it? Does it need an adj cam wheel and therefore it's completely out of sync at TDC?
08-19-2010, 09:38 AM
#15
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John,
As we discussed I had such a bad experience with the first one after waiting 18 months for project completion and dropping big dollars into the project.
No fault of yours but since the shop has had the Vitsse stuff it's been over three months and my first drive was not a great one. So i am hoping the tuning can get done accurately by the shop.
As we discussed I had such a bad experience with the first one after waiting 18 months for project completion and dropping big dollars into the project.
No fault of yours but since the shop has had the Vitsse stuff it's been over three months and my first drive was not a great one. So i am hoping the tuning can get done accurately by the shop.
Also, with so much done, make sure and check all you connections of boost leaks.
Also, the wastegate REALLY helps. I am running a dual port tial with the Vitesse boost controller. With a little dialing in, you can get the boost to come on pretty hard by keeping wastegate closed while building boost.
I will (hopefully) know next week how much power the car gained.
-Dana