incomplete

sorry this post is long, but there's a lot going on w/this car and i'm getting to the point of absolute indecision.

i may have had a revelation, crazy idea, or good plan while reading up on the stuff i'll need to be doing to get my car running *reliably*. i don't care about 500hp.

here's the deal w/my 951: i bought it in november 09, and got to drive it for maybe a month and a half at most total until i took it off the road in mid-february. it was $6k, and w/o going in to the sordid details (bad pre-purchase inspection, seller didn't know wtf he was selling me, some massive repair bills), i have *since* spent another $8k in repairs and parts. the list of repairs is staggering, but after the $5k breakdown i began to wonder if i should continue, or give up.

then i took of the intake manifold and saw doom. mid-march, i stopped, took a few months off, and recently decided to get started again. in the process of my research in to what i need to do on these and other sites, i constantly was reminded of the regular and potentially expensive maintenance costs on this car long-term. i can only do so much myself.

for the below, i have ALL parts except the rear wheel bearings. if i want to get the car running, safe and drivable, here's the quick list of what needs to happen. i can do most of this:
* crank/speed sensors replaced (won't start, no tach bounce)
* engine harness replacement
* battery leads replaced
* fuel lines replaced w/braided steel
* vacuum system completely re-done w/LR silicon venturi delete
* new A/F data logger installed
* rear wheel bearings replaced (clicking pretty constantly, and the rear axles are new)
* passenger side motor mount heat shield needs to be mounted
* exhaust manifold wrapped
* injectors rebuilt and matched
* fuel pressure gauge installed
* identify the wastegate (car parked @ an angle, to low to crawl underneath and nervous about jacking it up)
* entire intake system and manifold put back together
* TUNE TUNE TUNE. i have absolutely no clue what the engine is set for, but i'm sure it's lean (passed CA smog when purchased w/o any tuning changes)
* tires are nearly bald
* alignment desperately needed

this is what i *know* about. given the past expenses, multiple breakdowns, and steady stream of things being "fixed", it's not seeming to get any better. i'm considering just doing the bare minimum above (vacuum, crank/speed, battery leads, reassemble intake system) and see if it starts and runs ok.

here's what i am worried about:
* the car overheated once (led to the $5k repair)
* there's evidence of much heat affects on the sensor wiring harness, meaning other overheating incidents in the past
* i have been bitten by, identified some and fixed a few shady repairs from who knows when (the radiator held in place w/a wood screw drilled IN to the core was a contributor to the $5k repair. the screw was on the driver side, and hidden from view... or it would have been seen)
* when i was trying to move it in to my driveway to take it off the road, it wouldn't start. while cranking, there was a huge "clang" from the engine bay, like metal slammed on to metal with extreme force. my ears rang for a second. the car started up a minute later, and ran fine, pulling 15lbs and behaving like nothing had happened. scary. nothing was left in the bay, nothing on the driveway.

this is why i am growing hesitant to put any more money and effort in to a motor that at it's best, needs constant care and feeding. the costs over time could be absolutely insane, and for the money i could have purchased a great car w/no problems.

so, what do i do? i see three options:

1) sell or part out the car, make back as much $$ as i can and then decide what to do next. maybe a miata.
2) take off the temp fixes, and fix everything listed above. check the head gasket, too. do all of the scheduled maintenance. but i drive a real 944T. which is what i want.
3) pull out the engine and everything not needed for a LS1 swap. get the basic, cheapest package and smog stuff (i live in CA). this i didn't know i wanted until i thought about it. more hp, easier, and potentially cheaper in the long run.

i'm guessing i can get an engine (i have corvette friends here), conversion kits (RH mounting and smog), and with the help and bribery of a few of my hardcore car geek friends, put possibly it together for less than $7k. this number is nice in that it *shouldn't* move much, and i'll part out a known working engine.

fixing up the 944T could be cheaper in the short term, but it's the track record of gremlin after gremlin, all fatal in a way, on top of the known recurring maintenance costs leads me to believe that it'll either break my bank and cause me to hate porsches, or die right after i put another few thousand in to it.

the chassis seems to be in good shape, which is why i'm thinking LS1. do we have anyone here from CA who's got experience buying, building, smogging, registering and owning one here? if so, i'd love to chat for a bit. it's very tempting to remove the cancer and put in something that will go a long way for improving reliability.

i'm in no rush, but i'm hoping to drive it in november for my birthday. even more special would be BEFORE the date i bought it on last year.

V2Rocket

paging tonyG...

if you do part the engine i might be interested in a shortblock.

gt37vgt

the laws relating to engine conversions are long and troublesome here and i was led to believe they are worse in CA under that logic i wouldn't change engines recently one of the members tracked down a good sorce for parts to build your own good loom do a bit of searching ..
they do take a bit of fiddling and watching and they are getting old now but when your not greedy they are a pretty reliable thing..

incomplete

@V2Rocket: call back the vultures, she ain't dead yet!

forgot to add:

this is the only kit i could find for the conversion and CA smog coverage:
http://www.renegadehybrids.com/944/L...chArticle.html (CA smog kit, $1597)
http://www.renegadehybrids.com/944/LS-1/LS-1.html (their basic kit, no upgrades, $2100)

so that's $4k to start.

docwyte

I recently went through the exact same decision process. In fact, my thread detailing my decision is right near yours.

After a similar tale of woe I decided to drop in the LS1. The car is at the shop right now getting prepped to have the stock 2.5l engine removed. I decided to do the LS1 because my bottom end was bad. Replacing the short block with another rebuilt 2.5, or a larger displacement 2.7 or 3.0 would cost an extremely large amount of money.

I could drop in an used motor from another local enthusiast, but I was worried about the consequences of putting in a used motor.

Since I have parts I can sell off my car which are desirable and should help defray the costs of the swap, I went for it.

I know there are a few LS1'd 944's running around Cali that have made it through the smog referee process. It can be done, I know Renegade has the parts to make it happen. The shop I'm using can probably do the same (www.944hybrids.com).

You don't want a LS1 from a Corvette, the accessories won't fit. For a direct fit you want one from an F body (Camaro/Firebird), they basically drop right in.

You do have another option since hopefully your current motor is in good shape and that's to replace the suspect parts and motor on. I can easily supply you with a wiring harness as well as most everything else you could need, as the only bad on my car is the short block. Oh and the A/C compressor is shot too...

Bluemach1

Hey Incomplete,
I am in the Sacramento area and I am doing a V8 swap using the motor from an F-Body (2000 T/A).

It will take some time to gather all of the parts you need and of course money. I bought my stuff from various sources that can mostly be found over at 944hybrids.com. I recently bought my engine uprights (relocates engine for V8) from Renegade after buying a set from another supplier. I had to buy a second set because as a CA swap you will have to use the stock exhaust manifolds. To do this you will need a none standard set of uprights that allow the steering shaft to clear (that needs to be modified as well by the way). the Renegade upright has a provision for a support bearing for the steering shaft. Here is the problem. I have been speaking with Scott at renegade this week and he told me that they have not done a CA conversion kit for 5 years and that the set of uprights I bought had been on thier shelf for years. Thier new deal is doing a conversion using the EROD engine. That motor alone is about $9000.

Anyway, all of the stuff you need to do a CA conversion is available. I will all come with your donor car if you go that route.. I am still doing research and have a long way to go. It is intimidating becasue you will ultimately be judged by the state.

Good luck.

V2Rocket

having been to the renegade shop i can tell you that they are knowledgeable guys who enjoy what they do, making monsters out of these cars. they have a nice facility and produce good results.

however there are less expensive alternatives out there that i would probably use in my own v8 swap down the line simply for price reasons. www.944hybrids.com and/or www.944v8s.com

odb812

Concerning the 2.5 vs. V8 question, I think we need to know more about the current condition of the car. For example, what was done during the $5k repair? Why do you believe you need to replace the items in your list. What was the doom discovered when the intake manifold was removed?

Also, the no start problem is more likely to be the harness side of the speed and reference sensor to harness connection at the back of the intake manifold than the sensors themselves, especially if the harness is in questionable condition. You can check by wiggling the wires and checking for torn boots.

The problems you have listed don't seem to be that difficult or expensive, especially when compared to a V8 conversion. If you ever need a hand with your car, I'm pretty close and willing to help.

piperporsche180944

^ +1

A ls1 would be a good swap but there is no sense in spending all of that money if its a potentially simple fix.

incomplete

melted cheap plastic sheathing all over the block. cracked sensor harness below. oil EVERYWHERE. cracked and disintegrating vacuum hoses. random T-joints blocked off. none of the vacuum lines seemed to match up w/anything i saw in any of the guides online. mis-matched and stripped bolts. the ICV was held in place by zip ties.

the vacuum system was such a mess i decided (rightly or wrongly) to rip it all out and start from scratch. that was in march, and i'm hoping to get started on doing that this weekend once i brush up on what goes where.



the *one* good thing are the repair records i got when buying the car. the previous (2nd) owner, who knew nothing about cars, would throw money at the car to fix whatever was ailing it. nothing preventative, but i have records galore.

the $5k repair was quite an experience. i had just spent $2k to get the rear CV joints and motor mounts replaced. a couple of days later, at 2am, the gf and i were driving back home after going out. she was curious how a car's heater worked and as we approached the san mateo bridge, in the middle of my explanation, i noticed that there was no heat coming out of the vents just as she asked if the head was on. then i remembered that the belts squealed when merging on the freeway.

it wasn't rain, it was the radiator, bent back from an accident that was flexing a hose in to a belt. the hose didn't last long, and just as the temperature pegged red i shut it off and cruised in to the san mateo bridge toll booth parking lot. we sat there for 4 hours as CALTRANS and AAA argued about whether or not it was safe to pick me up.

ah, irony.

i'll get the full repair list tomorrow and post it.

yeah, they're quite torn. nearly all of the softer plastics in the engine bay range from ripped to falling apart. the harness sheath is brittle and badly cracked, showing the wires unprotected below. i have a new harness, and will definitely be replacing it.

i got in on a group buy here for a set of new harness connectors as well. i think i am getting boots too.

the engine harness is mildly worrying to me. my plan is to clean up the new used one, and then put on the new connectors when they arrive.

the thing that worries me most about the car is the slew of bad fixes spanning from the previous owner's shops and in to my last one. the car would never quite run right, and when it did it invariably meant a breakdown was imminent.

the loud clang i heard while trying to start it also bugs me, mostly because nothing happened.

shane

docwyte

944hybrids and 944v8s are NOT the same guy. In fact, 944v8s has basically shuttered his business and several people have been left in the lurch. Hopefully they'll be taken care of.

Right now I'd only go with Renegade or 94hybrids...

V2Rocket

noted. what was the problem with 944v8s?

docwyte

Not sure, think he had some health problems. Unfortunately he kept taking orders and people money and was overwhelmed and unable to send the parts...

incomplete

yeah, i saw that right before i posted.

cool. i have been slowly amassing the parts i need over the last few months and should have most of what i need. i have no AC because, well, the condenser "took one for the team" when the previous owner hit something and smashed back the radiator. that's right now low on my list. of things.

does your post have the complete list of crap you've got?

my plan now is to at continue on parallel paths. while i do my research on the v8 conversion and look for a cheap donor car, i will finish up the 944 engine bay. if the engine has more issues then i will asses my next steps.

simply put, if the turbo motor continues to fail, or cause misery, i want to swap it with something less irritating. plus, it'll be a message to the car itself: "you had a chance, you german clockwerken, but see what you get? we could have avoided the american motor if you'd decided earlier on to cooperate!"



shane

manticore33

All of the issues you list are not really the engine's fault. The core engine is fine; it is the vacuum hoses and worn out wiring that seems to be giving you fits. Maybe try a new harness and running all new vacuum lines. I guess, I am at a loss since these are the type of items you generally expect to happen to a 20+ year old car.

It sounds like you purchased a bad car and have gotten well over your head. Do you do your own work or are you taking this mess to a shop? If you are taking the car to a shop, stop now and invest in a new/different car.

Things like alignment and tires have nothing to do with the car running and you will still have to do that type of repair work with a swapped engine.