Best Low Cost Track Car
10-08-2009, 11:10 AM
#32
Rennlist Member
Cheap is relative, right? Sticking with the Porsche marque - still hard to find cheaper speed than a 951 or S2. Compare the cost of building a stock class competitive 944S2, 951, or 951S to a Euro SC, 3.2 Carrera, 964 or 993. Including the car purchase price, the 944 platforms are half to even maybe a third as much?
Yes, there are some maintenance requirements, and the 911s are arguably more reliable. But the cost of 911 engine and trans rebuilds are high compared to 944s. Doc, offhand, whats the cost of a 915 core or rebuild compared to our audi transmissions? What about a 3.6 compared to finding a 2.5 long block?
What would it cost to build and run a 2:35 car at Road America on a 911 platform, a BMW 3 -series, RX7, honda or other, compared to a stock classed 951S? For comparison, a top SP1 944 N/A runs approx 2:48s there and I recall spec miatas were only 2-3 seconds faster than that - and there is some real money in the spec miatas that are running those times.
The newer water cooled flat engines have the oiling/bearings problems (engine failures), to include boxters and everything but the GT3 and Turbo - so not sure I would say any of those would be comparitively cheap to track long term. And I have yet to see any non-S caymans be competitive in class against the older cars.
5-7k is only going to get the guy into an SP1 944 N/A type car for a porsche track car. 5-7k in an S2 or 951 would not build a reliable or fast track car. Others will have to comment on what that would get for other types of cars, but I dont think that pocket book limit will buy very much reliable speed.
Yes, there are some maintenance requirements, and the 911s are arguably more reliable. But the cost of 911 engine and trans rebuilds are high compared to 944s. Doc, offhand, whats the cost of a 915 core or rebuild compared to our audi transmissions? What about a 3.6 compared to finding a 2.5 long block?
What would it cost to build and run a 2:35 car at Road America on a 911 platform, a BMW 3 -series, RX7, honda or other, compared to a stock classed 951S? For comparison, a top SP1 944 N/A runs approx 2:48s there and I recall spec miatas were only 2-3 seconds faster than that - and there is some real money in the spec miatas that are running those times.
The newer water cooled flat engines have the oiling/bearings problems (engine failures), to include boxters and everything but the GT3 and Turbo - so not sure I would say any of those would be comparitively cheap to track long term. And I have yet to see any non-S caymans be competitive in class against the older cars.
5-7k is only going to get the guy into an SP1 944 N/A type car for a porsche track car. 5-7k in an S2 or 951 would not build a reliable or fast track car. Others will have to comment on what that would get for other types of cars, but I dont think that pocket book limit will buy very much reliable speed.
10-08-2009, 11:50 AM
#33
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since i got back to phx a friend is running a spec944 and i've ridden with him/nasa instructor at firebird lake and pir and mazda miata's blow by him on the straights.
10-08-2009, 12:05 PM
#34
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Not slamming the Miata - if you just ask the question "Best Low cost track car" the overwhelming favorite is the Miata - my buddy likes horsepower - but we are still considering miatas......
Thanks!
Thanks!
10-08-2009, 12:50 PM
#36
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Cheap is relative, right? Sticking with the Porsche marque - still hard to find cheaper speed than a 951 or S2. Compare the cost of building a stock class competitive 944S2, 951, or 951S to a Euro SC, 3.2 Carrera, 964 or 993. Including the car purchase price, the 944 platforms are half to even maybe a third as much?
Yes, there are some maintenance requirements, and the 911s are arguably more reliable. But the cost of 911 engine and trans rebuilds are high compared to 944s. Doc, offhand, whats the cost of a 915 core or rebuild compared to our audi transmissions? What about a 3.6 compared to finding a 2.5 long block?
What would it cost to build and run a 2:35 car at Road America on a 911 platform, a BMW 3 -series, RX7, honda or other, compared to a stock classed 951S? For comparison, a top SP1 944 N/A runs approx 2:48s there and I recall spec miatas were only 2-3 seconds faster than that - and there is some real money in the spec miatas that are running those times.
The newer water cooled flat engines have the oiling/bearings problems (engine failures), to include boxters and everything but the GT3 and Turbo - so not sure I would say any of those would be comparitively cheap to track long term. And I have yet to see any non-S caymans be competitive in class against the older cars.
5-7k is only going to get the guy into an SP1 944 N/A type car for a porsche track car. 5-7k in an S2 or 951 would not build a reliable or fast track car. Others will have to comment on what that would get for other types of cars, but I dont think that pocket book limit will buy very much reliable speed.
Yes, there are some maintenance requirements, and the 911s are arguably more reliable. But the cost of 911 engine and trans rebuilds are high compared to 944s. Doc, offhand, whats the cost of a 915 core or rebuild compared to our audi transmissions? What about a 3.6 compared to finding a 2.5 long block?
What would it cost to build and run a 2:35 car at Road America on a 911 platform, a BMW 3 -series, RX7, honda or other, compared to a stock classed 951S? For comparison, a top SP1 944 N/A runs approx 2:48s there and I recall spec miatas were only 2-3 seconds faster than that - and there is some real money in the spec miatas that are running those times.
The newer water cooled flat engines have the oiling/bearings problems (engine failures), to include boxters and everything but the GT3 and Turbo - so not sure I would say any of those would be comparitively cheap to track long term. And I have yet to see any non-S caymans be competitive in class against the older cars.
5-7k is only going to get the guy into an SP1 944 N/A type car for a porsche track car. 5-7k in an S2 or 951 would not build a reliable or fast track car. Others will have to comment on what that would get for other types of cars, but I dont think that pocket book limit will buy very much reliable speed.
Looking at the budget, you can buy an already built SPEC/SP1 car off someone in the 6k range. Just takes some looking. With that budget, you can't begin to build a car from scratch.
10-08-2009, 01:55 PM
#37
Rennlist Member
If you buddy likes HP, tell him to get a 951. There are lots of high HP examples for sale now for cheap (under $10k).
If he wants a fast and reliable DE car for about the same money, I'd say it's hard to beat an e36 M3.
If he wants a fast and reliable DE car for about the same money, I'd say it's hard to beat an e36 M3.
10-08-2009, 02:11 PM
#38
Race Director
Franky I thnk the 944 NA is even better, but you are so concern about straights. Ha straights only exisit to get to the next corner.
Seriously a nicely build S2 is good. Solid power and great chassis. Turbo's are good too, but it is very easy to get caught up in the quest for more hp and kill the relabilty and or spend $$$$$$$.
The E36 is nice solid chassis as well. Those would be my first choices. You could also go with a boxster. The are a bit more money, but getting cheaper every day.
10-08-2009, 02:15 PM
#39
Race Car
Why not look at something like a Fox body Mustang? Cheap and easy to make fast cheap. They aren't going to handle well without a lot of work, but the Camaro-Mustang challenge series is designed to make things affordable.
10-08-2009, 02:19 PM
#40
Race Director
To answer some questions -
"Low Cost" - 5-7k initial investment.
"Purpose" - Primarily DE and other non-wheel to wheel events
"Driver" - Not me, but a friend who has raced shifter karts at a very high level and used to prepare Marco Andretti's shifter karts. - he just wants something cheap he can use to get back into track driving and instructing.
.
"Low Cost" - 5-7k initial investment.
"Purpose" - Primarily DE and other non-wheel to wheel events
"Driver" - Not me, but a friend who has raced shifter karts at a very high level and used to prepare Marco Andretti's shifter karts. - he just wants something cheap he can use to get back into track driving and instructing.
.
Given this... S2 or E36
DE in an open car like an S2000 is pain. Sounds he want simple no frills track beater, but with the empahsis on no frills. He will be instructing all day so no time to fiddle fart with the car and he will be in advance DE groups on track to have some fun rather than hustle the car. E36 M3 is really a good choice, but not sure if it fits in the price range.
10-08-2009, 02:23 PM
#41
Race Director
I sold my S2000 as I became addicted as to make it "safe" would require a rollbar/cage and a hardtop and make it kind of useless as a convertible car. Great motor/chassis though, was a lot of fun on track.
10-08-2009, 02:23 PM
#42
Race Director
Bear... I have never had a Miata blow by me on ANY straight. Some can turn faster lap at PIR than me at NASA Nationals the fastest Miata were faster than the fastest 944's, but there was no blowing by going on. I have blown by SM's at Cal Speedway up on the banking. Those cars just don't run well at over 120 mph.
Not sure who the friend is as know all the Az 944 spec guys, but having a Miata blow by is driver related. I am pretty sure I have blown by this guy a time or two myself if he has had Miata's blow by him.
10-08-2009, 03:53 PM
#43
Rennlist Member
Personal perference isnt necessarily based entirely on information, or lack of. With the amount of money that will be spent on the hobby, a person should select a car they really like/want regardless if it costs more or is noticeably slower than another.
Some of us are just not secure enough to be seen driving, let alone racing, a miata. No matter how fast, fun, or cheap, I personally wouldnt be caught dead in one w/o a wearing a Snoopy costume, complete with red scarf blowing in the breeze.
Just kidding.....the scarf wouldnt need to be red - it could match or nicely accent the color of the car too.
Some of us are just not secure enough to be seen driving, let alone racing, a miata. No matter how fast, fun, or cheap, I personally wouldnt be caught dead in one w/o a wearing a Snoopy costume, complete with red scarf blowing in the breeze.
Just kidding.....the scarf wouldnt need to be red - it could match or nicely accent the color of the car too.
10-08-2009, 05:00 PM
#44
Rennlist Member
Anyone here actually bought, built and run another make of car in addition to a 944? And had both cars at a near equal level of modification and performance, and pushed them equally hard for several seasons? Im not talking about a few DEs, Im talking about racing in a competitive series, where you get a good understanding of how reliable the cars are when truly pushed hard on the track. How long do wheel bearings last, how many hours between top and bottom end rebuilds, how long do trans bearings last, differentials, CV joints?
What makes a 944 or 951 more expensive to track?
If you start doing a serious comparison between vehicle cost, maintenance, consumables, versus lap times at any given track - racing is not cheap, no matter what. The faster the car, the more expensive it is to buy, run, and maintain.
Much of the annual hobby budget is eaten up by entry fees, hotels, food, and fuel. And a lot is taken up with consumables - fluid changes, brake pads, and especially tires. Routine maintenance isnt even a 1/3rd of the budget.
Building a track car has an awful lot of common costs, regardless of make and model. Safety equipment, cage, seats, belts, etc all cost the same and is a big part of the build. If you don’t do the work yourself, labor is probably 60% + of the overall build, and I don’t think BMW tuners have much cheaper hourly rates than p-car shops. Aftermarket suspension parts are similar. Bilstein or Koni shocks for a 944 are not significantly more than the cost of equal bilstein or koni for a BMW. Springs cost the same. BBS wheels cost the same, no matter what car the bolt pattern fits.
I have more money tied up in wheel sets and the tires Ive bought over the years, than the cost to build my current 951 and all the maintenance on it to date, including spare engines and transmissions.
Point is, I am uncertain that a 951 or S2 is significantly more expensive to track at the same performance level, than other makes of cars. Anyone have some real budget numbers to compare?
What makes a 944 or 951 more expensive to track?
If you start doing a serious comparison between vehicle cost, maintenance, consumables, versus lap times at any given track - racing is not cheap, no matter what. The faster the car, the more expensive it is to buy, run, and maintain.
Much of the annual hobby budget is eaten up by entry fees, hotels, food, and fuel. And a lot is taken up with consumables - fluid changes, brake pads, and especially tires. Routine maintenance isnt even a 1/3rd of the budget.
Building a track car has an awful lot of common costs, regardless of make and model. Safety equipment, cage, seats, belts, etc all cost the same and is a big part of the build. If you don’t do the work yourself, labor is probably 60% + of the overall build, and I don’t think BMW tuners have much cheaper hourly rates than p-car shops. Aftermarket suspension parts are similar. Bilstein or Koni shocks for a 944 are not significantly more than the cost of equal bilstein or koni for a BMW. Springs cost the same. BBS wheels cost the same, no matter what car the bolt pattern fits.
I have more money tied up in wheel sets and the tires Ive bought over the years, than the cost to build my current 951 and all the maintenance on it to date, including spare engines and transmissions.
Point is, I am uncertain that a 951 or S2 is significantly more expensive to track at the same performance level, than other makes of cars. Anyone have some real budget numbers to compare?
10-08-2009, 05:19 PM
#45
Race Director
i have build, maintained and raced a 944 NA for 9 years. I know the costs involved. The biggest ones are entry fees, travel costs and tires. Entry fees and travel costs are similar for any car. Tires really come down to size and wear rates. Heaver cars use bigger tires more rapidly. More powerful cars also tend to use more tires.
After that the cost to operate a track car get very similar for most cars in certain speed ranges. Again the faster you go the more stress you put on parts and the more expensive those parts tend to be. The big unknown in track costs are the major repairs which happen to some and not to others. Even so we are talking smaller numbers.
Cost to track a 944 NA vs 944 S2 vs Turbo are all similar except are lower for the NA. The reason comes down to smaller tire (in general you can run 15's on an NA), and the less hp. Lower hp puts lets stress on the parts meaning they are less likely to fail. When they do they tend to be cheaper to replace and easier to get to. The only reason Turbo cost more is power is so easy to get.
Still for this driver I thnk and E36 M3 would be perfect. Or just an E36. Good solid car, powerfull enough and stout enough to run all day long with out tinkering. He could run a nice race prepped 944 NA, but I have a feeling is it not ideal for an instructor. As an instructor you just want to drive and not worry about things. Plus it is easier to point and squirt than to be forced to go 9/10th every corner just to not get run over.
If it were a newbie I would suggest a 944 NA.
After that the cost to operate a track car get very similar for most cars in certain speed ranges. Again the faster you go the more stress you put on parts and the more expensive those parts tend to be. The big unknown in track costs are the major repairs which happen to some and not to others. Even so we are talking smaller numbers.
Cost to track a 944 NA vs 944 S2 vs Turbo are all similar except are lower for the NA. The reason comes down to smaller tire (in general you can run 15's on an NA), and the less hp. Lower hp puts lets stress on the parts meaning they are less likely to fail. When they do they tend to be cheaper to replace and easier to get to. The only reason Turbo cost more is power is so easy to get.
Still for this driver I thnk and E36 M3 would be perfect. Or just an E36. Good solid car, powerfull enough and stout enough to run all day long with out tinkering. He could run a nice race prepped 944 NA, but I have a feeling is it not ideal for an instructor. As an instructor you just want to drive and not worry about things. Plus it is easier to point and squirt than to be forced to go 9/10th every corner just to not get run over.
If it were a newbie I would suggest a 944 NA.