strandolph

Is there a problem using this method to tune an NA?

JohnKoaWood

No there isn't other than you have a fixed amount of air entering the engine on the N/A... whereas with a turbo car more air is just a **** twist away!

You CAN tune an N/A with this meathod, however you run the risk of upsetting a judge or tech guy and getting DQd at the track... other than that you can pick up a few hp and some different HP and Torque curves...

strandolph

Hanging an Ostrich on the DME wouldn't be legal for rule sets that include a non-piggyback section, but it seems to me that you could use the Ostrich to dyno-iterate your tuning map, then burn that map to a chip to race with.

Just need a chip burner that writes to 27C64A chips that works with TunerPro? Maybe that's the limitation... Do any of Moates' products burn a chip that can be used in our DMEs? Or does TunerPro work with another model burner that will?

V2Rocket

john, i have been toying with the idea of putting some premium gas (91) or race (100) in an NA and altering the timing and fueling a bit, running some more advance to take advantage of the octane. have you tried this at all?

JohnKoaWood

Again, only so much you can do on the N/A motor without other mods...

You can only advance the timing so much before you will beckfire through the intake because the valves aren't closed yet, but I think that is beyond the limits of the Motronic...

the advantage of 100 would be tollerance of higher compression than stock, or higher boost, on a stock N/A motor you arent getting more air in, so you can only add so much fuel before it becomes self defeating.

The timing will only allow you to gain to a point before the HP falls off again, the factory tune was conservative and can be fine tuned to add a few HP/TQ, I would be suprised if one were to pick up even 15HP from fine tuning...

NOW if you want to do internal engine modifications, or force induction you have more to gain as internal mods allow you to change the compression and forced indiction brings its own fun to the game...

I wouldn't use 100 in a bone stock N/A motor, no need for it, 91 has enough resistance to knock at 10.2:1 of a late N/A motor to allow fine tuning the ignition maps (this would be why MaxHpChips russel is selling N/A chips fo our cars... it can be fine tuned, but only to a finite point)

JohnKoaWood

The BURN 2 will write to 24 and 28 pin Proms (I bought the BURN2 and chips for just this purpose...I have an 87 951 with a 24 pin DME and have verified that my immage will burn and work via a 28 pin chip in a socket adapter also from moates, but I had to have the adapter for the ostrich to work as well), but if the judges pop your chips you are done (you can no longer get IR EEPROMS, now all you can get is flash PROMS, there is no window in teh top of the chip so it is easy to tell them apart from the OEM chips which had an epoxy "window" in the top of the chip covered by the sticker to avoid accidental exposre to IR light)... you COULD get or build a writer that will write to the OEM EPROMS but you would need to erase them first (IR light exposure for period of time, usually 12 - 24 hours for complete wipe)...

If you were to take this route, the judges would have to verify the chip data to catch an infraction, but it wouldn't suprise me if they decided to do this if there was a complaint against your car for being fast on the track....not to mention if the judges had to go this far to catch you on an infraction, and did catch it I would be suprised if you were allowed to register for another race in that series.. ( think DOOM and DOOM2... BANNED, fast but banned all the same)

PLUS, there is only so much gain to be had on a N/A motor from tuning.. it would be MUCH easier to internally mod the engine for bigger gains (think stroker crank / custom pistons / bigger valves) tuning will only yield a few HP on a N/A motor...

The AT29C256 is a usable chip, but will fail on visual inspection..

This guy made his own programer
http://www.miranda.org/~jkominek/hardware/eeprom/

And here is a programmer that "SHOULD" work for only $45... but...
http://www.sivava.com/EPROM_Programmer_4.html

And you can add another $31 for an eraser..
http://www.sivava.com/buynow.php?pd=PE03

but alas, they are out of stock for the eraser... but the programmer is in stock, and as your chip only requires 12.5V presented for programing the programer should work fine....

V2Rocket

well, considering that the normal NA motor is happy on 87 (gascap says 86) i thought it could be interesting to see how far you could take it. i do understand the concern with backfiring though. i realize not much gain would be made...could be a neat experiment for someone doing dyno testing for other stuff

JohnKoaWood

Shoot Russel an e-mail, I am sure he already did this when working on his N/A chips...

67King

I am not aware of any OEM's that were using algebraic calculations in their programming. Even as late as 2004, when I did my last professional calibration work (2004 V8 Explorer engine calibration), eveything was in tables. The old EEV-IV stuff I used to play with on my old project car was the same way. I took a few different curves when I moved to MAF, and put them in an Excel document. Curve fit gave me a 0.99 R squared, so it was pretty close (but these were MAFs). I tweaked it from there, as they will vary with induction systems.

67King

Actually I have that unit. Used it on my XR. Eventually moved from EPROMs to Flash ones, via an adapter. WOrked great, FWIW.

This is like deja vu. Was going through these pains about 7-8 years ago on Ford stuff. I luckily had someone like Rogue to hold my hand, though!

strandolph

Thanks, John. I run in the 944 Cup where chips are free, so no problem with a custom chip. I just wanted to be able to create them myself.

What adapter from the ostrich did you need for the 28 pin chip to work? The Socket Booster?

I Found the 27C64 chips here (with the UV erase window) http://www.jdr.com/interact/item.asp?itemno=27C64A-150 and at least one other place, so they seem to still be available.

Were you able to use a BURN2 because you used a AT29C256 chip?

Steve

Bri Bro

You can still buy new windowed PROMS (EPROMS). These chips were used in many applications and replacements are still available from several sources.
http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/sto...01&keyCode=PDF
http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/sto...oductId=105304

The EPROM has a floating gate layer and when a higher voltage (program voltage) is applied to the cell, a charge is made (stuck) inside the gate. This can only be removed by placing the IC in a true Ultra violet (black light) source (not IR) for around 30 minutes. The black light needs to be a wavelength of 2537 Angstroms with the IC around an inch from the light source. This isn't a night club black light bulb, these bulbs will cause serious skin sunburns and blindness if you look at them for even a short period of time. You really need to buy a commercial EPROM eraser to get the correct results. After the IC is removed from the eraser, it can be blank checked on the IC programmer to insure all the cells are erased.

The next stage of development after the 27C32 was to a EEPROM (Electrically Erasable Programmable Read Only Memory). These didn't have a quartz lens in the case because they could be erased electrically in the programmer.

strandolph

So, is that the AT29C256?

Bri Bro

The last number in the IC part number is the number of memory cells in thousands. Since the this type of memory is read 8 bits at a time (bytes) you will also see that a 2732 is a 4K bytes (4kX8=32k) and the 2764 is a 8K bytes (8kX8=64k).

The 29C256 has 256K memory cells or bits and it is a 32K byte device. The device is a EEPROM so it has no window on the package. It also is 4 times larger then what you need since the DME is setup for a 2764 memory IC. It is in a 28 pin package because the 2764 has unused pins that are used on the 29C256. If you use the 29C256, you need to make sure the extra pins that are used on the device are set at the correct level.

If I was going to change a 2764 from EPROM to EEPROM, I would go to a 28C64 which has the same memory size and pinout as the 2764.
http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/sto...roductId=74827
http://search.digikey.com/scripts/Dk...28C64B-15PU-ND

The EEPROM never came out as a 28C32 to the best of my knowledge so you are stuck with a EPROM (27c32) unless you add pins to the DME EPROM socket to support the larger 28 pin package.

Rogue_Ant

Converting to a 28pin EPROM works as FRWilks site suggests (at least for the 951 DME).