ITB Intake Manifold interest
10-02-2009, 10:31 AM
#136
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10-02-2009, 11:39 PM
#138
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I think you misinterpreted what I was trying to say.What I was trying to say was that we could have been selling each others parts all these years. I wasn't saying we want to collaborate on parts with you guys. LOL! But at this point,we dont want anything to do with Lindsey Racing.
Last edited by TurboTim; 10-05-2009 at 02:19 PM.
10-03-2009, 12:36 AM
#139
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wow 
67king sounds like he knows this stuff inside and out...
and I agree with one point in particular...a better design can be had now a days with 'theory', calculations and modelling than 'rule of thumb' and experimentation...
the days of Yunick have passed, but if he were here, he'd be using guys like 67king and computers...he was THAT smart
and guys like Rosch sought this technology, using SCADA/data aq systems fom military helos to help 'push the envelope'
67king sounds like he knows this stuff inside and out...
and I agree with one point in particular...a better design can be had now a days with 'theory', calculations and modelling than 'rule of thumb' and experimentation...
the days of Yunick have passed, but if he were here, he'd be using guys like 67king and computers...he was THAT smart
and guys like Rosch sought this technology, using SCADA/data aq systems fom military helos to help 'push the envelope'
10-03-2009, 11:08 AM
#140
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Works at club level, too. Just heard from the guy whose BMW I mentioned earlier in this thread. First time on the track (Road Atlanta) was yesterday. Set a new class record the first time the car hit the track for qualifying in the 1.34's. Put on new tires for the race, took off another two seconds. And to tie it back into the OP, the intake did use ITB's (though it was a fallout of the design, not a going in assumption).
Last edited by 67King; 10-03-2009 at 11:28 AM.
10-03-2009, 07:09 PM
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Thanks, I had a lot of really good experience. It is absolutely amazing what technology has enabled us to do over the past decade or so. One of my friends is now an engineer for Michael Waltrip, so yes, even the NASCAR guys use the more modern approach. As much as folks rave about Formula 1's capabilities, the NASCAR engines are every bit as impressive. Absolutely amazing what they can do, despite their limitations. Another friend (who is probably one of the best handful of cylinder head guys in the world - yes, literally) does a lot of stuff for Yates and Roush on the side. The last thing he worked on for Roush was for one of their drag cars. Set a new class record the first time out. Too bad Roush doesn't put that effort into their street cars.
Works at club level, too. Just heard from the guy whose BMW I mentioned earlier in this thread. First time on the track (Road Atlanta) was yesterday. Set a new class record the first time the car hit the track for qualifying in the 1.34's. Put on new tires for the race, took off another two seconds. And to tie it back into the OP, the intake did use ITB's (though it was a fallout of the design, not a going in assumption).
Works at club level, too. Just heard from the guy whose BMW I mentioned earlier in this thread. First time on the track (Road Atlanta) was yesterday. Set a new class record the first time the car hit the track for qualifying in the 1.34's. Put on new tires for the race, took off another two seconds. And to tie it back into the OP, the intake did use ITB's (though it was a fallout of the design, not a going in assumption).
if you'll indulge mee46 M3 (applies to the euro e36 M3 also)
combustion air intake system
duct from pig nose (high press I assume) to the filter box call it I1
duct from (to) lower brake duct out of the bottom of the filter box R1
duct from filter box to MAF and plenum/ITB's engine C1
let's assume steady 65 mph 20% throttle 6th gear:
I assume it works like this:
air at I1 ~ +100 units (unitized for convenience)
at into C1 -20
air OUT R1 (R for relief) -80
crack throttle or downshift to accel:
I1 +100 (speed ~ same initially)
C1 up to -40 say, more throttle/rpm's
R1 -60
is the lower duct for relief and to allow good air flow/velocity, constant P?
and if C1 goes to 100 then R1 goes towards 0 or even positive (intake)?
this helps prevent stalling & surging? eg, the bypass or releif air is diverted from exhaust to the engine...smooth transition
the lower tube enters the duct after a venturi, as if to create low P, to promote flow out of it, and points rearward a bit...... (the right duct is different)
the new e9x M3's have a similar set-up, but the R duct is on the hood, one of those grills and comes out the back of the plenum...
is this accurate?
side note: I have designed large HVAC for pharma plants, and they usually have a big fan drawing Outside Air (OA) and conditioning it...it blows into a plenum which multiple smaller air handling units draw from...the plenum is constant P, regulated by a automatic damper (valve) that diverts the excess air back into the OA unit intake...and the intake to each small AHU is also controlled by an auto damper...analogous to an engine is some ways...
and if for some reason (less cooling, door opened, etc.) one of the AHU's slows down/speeds up (VFD) and needs less/more air this damper closes/opens to maintain the plenum pressure...the point being, the plenum being refered to as a surge tank, is a good description, or a capacitor, it stores air/volume (Q or current) at a constant press (voltage) and acts as as a buffer for the machines/devices it supplies...absords pulses, noise (acoustic and flow), etc.
10-04-2009, 03:51 AM
#143
Lindsey product looks great, but i am also interested of the basics what comes to design of ITB systems, is it possible to open a new thread concerning ITB design to all of us, not just PM to several people.
10-04-2009, 04:24 AM
#144
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10-04-2009, 06:33 AM
#145
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i have been reading with great interests the developments from vendors,and i think that we are drawn too much into theories ,and healthy competition with views exchanged.
Someone mentioned the BMW E30 earlier on with the first generation ITB, and it happenned I have studied and competed against these cars on numerous occassions in tarmac European and Middle east
TARMAC rallies.The 2.3 litre 16 valve engines were producing in excess of 290 bhp at 7,600 rpm in n/a
form.the bodies were 42 to 45 mm depending on the car., and the plenums were the most unsophisticated ,just a plenum joining all together.The secret was in the head porting design,camshafts ,
the dimensions of the valves, and bluprinting the fuelling parameters to be the optimum on each part of the rev /load range.
in my honest opinion going from single throttle to straight individual is vastly improving the flow and fill up of each cylinder with the air it needs, rather than a single butterfly for 4 cylinders, watever the plenum size which inhibits this
from the performance point of view.I think also if someone checks the Bernoullis principles ,
with the terms related to supersonic air speeds at the narrowest point of the airpaths,i.e. throttle plate and shaft,which moves just before the inlet tract,rather been several inches further up the intake
the deductions would be clear .Perhaps for the turbo applications would be more complex,but when i did my engineering degree with a thesis on turbochargers for automobile applications ,there was nothing
at the time suggesting that this was the case.
Any progress on the manifold ,Dave?
Someone mentioned the BMW E30 earlier on with the first generation ITB, and it happenned I have studied and competed against these cars on numerous occassions in tarmac European and Middle east
TARMAC rallies.The 2.3 litre 16 valve engines were producing in excess of 290 bhp at 7,600 rpm in n/a
form.the bodies were 42 to 45 mm depending on the car., and the plenums were the most unsophisticated ,just a plenum joining all together.The secret was in the head porting design,camshafts ,
the dimensions of the valves, and bluprinting the fuelling parameters to be the optimum on each part of the rev /load range.
in my honest opinion going from single throttle to straight individual is vastly improving the flow and fill up of each cylinder with the air it needs, rather than a single butterfly for 4 cylinders, watever the plenum size which inhibits this
from the performance point of view.I think also if someone checks the Bernoullis principles ,
with the terms related to supersonic air speeds at the narrowest point of the airpaths,i.e. throttle plate and shaft,which moves just before the inlet tract,rather been several inches further up the intake
the deductions would be clear .Perhaps for the turbo applications would be more complex,but when i did my engineering degree with a thesis on turbochargers for automobile applications ,there was nothing
at the time suggesting that this was the case.
Any progress on the manifold ,Dave?
10-04-2009, 07:10 AM
#146
the plenums were the most unsophisticated ,just a plenum joining all together
Alpha-N system is quite interesting because it does not use AFM, MAF or MAP.
10-04-2009, 10:12 AM
#147
Nordschleife Master
Alpha-N is just load mapped against TPS. Can be done on any N/A engine. On a turbocharged engine too, as long as you use pressure compensation from a MAP sensor. So actually it has nothing to do with the plenum itself.
10-04-2009, 04:02 PM
#149
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Not that I'm a C/F guy just for the looks of it but that does look very sexy right there Olli!
