Aprox. cost to build a....
08-28-2009, 09:08 AM
#16
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Hmmmm...another one of those questions where we get to guess what the question really is and then people get annoyed with the answers.
If I understand that the original poster will be doing all the work then the only ‘custom’ parts that are really needed (for the minimum build cost) are the pistons and some chips. Everything else can be off the shelf stuff. The price for the off the shelf parts is up to the builder – how cheap and resourceful can he be? I could quote the parts of used prices – but they are all over the place.
Now the opinion part (!) – the point of most 3.0 builds is not to build a ‘cheap’ engine but to build something the ‘right’ way. Right is always in the eye (and wallet) of the beholder. A good example is where to start with a block – I can sleeve a 2.5 out to 104mm drop in a 3.0 crank and you have a 3.0 bottom end that will accept a 2.5 head and its pretty strong stuff. Would it be better to start with a 3.0 block…yes, there are several features of the 3.0 family of blocks that are desirable – raise block floor (stronger) windage holes between cylinders and piston oilers in the 968 block. All this raises the cost a fair amount and is not strictly needed to make 400 rwhp – but it is the better way. You have to make decisions on what you want.
Here is my recipe for the ‘budget’ minded 3.0 turbo –
Start with a 2.5 engine ($500 for a used one)
Sleeve it to 104mm ($2800 plus shipping)
Head rebuild ($600 – guess at replacing springs)
Bearings / gaskets and hardware ($850)
Front end parts (belts/roller/pump) ($700)
Turbo $1K - 2k (that gives you a range of choices – could be as low as $1k)
Engine management ($600 - $4k – big range, lots of choices)
So there you have it – the cheap side is just over $6k for the DIY set up. Lots of work to DIY.
You can get it to $10k very quickly with a couple of options…up to $15k to take DIY out of the picture….up to $20k to have ‘state of the art’ work…
If I understand that the original poster will be doing all the work then the only ‘custom’ parts that are really needed (for the minimum build cost) are the pistons and some chips. Everything else can be off the shelf stuff. The price for the off the shelf parts is up to the builder – how cheap and resourceful can he be? I could quote the parts of used prices – but they are all over the place.
Now the opinion part (!) – the point of most 3.0 builds is not to build a ‘cheap’ engine but to build something the ‘right’ way. Right is always in the eye (and wallet) of the beholder. A good example is where to start with a block – I can sleeve a 2.5 out to 104mm drop in a 3.0 crank and you have a 3.0 bottom end that will accept a 2.5 head and its pretty strong stuff. Would it be better to start with a 3.0 block…yes, there are several features of the 3.0 family of blocks that are desirable – raise block floor (stronger) windage holes between cylinders and piston oilers in the 968 block. All this raises the cost a fair amount and is not strictly needed to make 400 rwhp – but it is the better way. You have to make decisions on what you want.
Here is my recipe for the ‘budget’ minded 3.0 turbo –
Start with a 2.5 engine ($500 for a used one)
Sleeve it to 104mm ($2800 plus shipping)
Head rebuild ($600 – guess at replacing springs)
Bearings / gaskets and hardware ($850)
Front end parts (belts/roller/pump) ($700)
Turbo $1K - 2k (that gives you a range of choices – could be as low as $1k)
Engine management ($600 - $4k – big range, lots of choices)
So there you have it – the cheap side is just over $6k for the DIY set up. Lots of work to DIY.
You can get it to $10k very quickly with a couple of options…up to $15k to take DIY out of the picture….up to $20k to have ‘state of the art’ work…
08-28-2009, 12:15 PM
#17
Hmmmm...another one of those questions where we get to guess what the question really is and then people get annoyed with the answers.
If I understand that the original poster will be doing all the work then the only ‘custom’ parts that are really needed (for the minimum build cost) are the pistons and some chips. Everything else can be off the shelf stuff. The price for the off the shelf parts is up to the builder – how cheap and resourceful can he be? I could quote the parts of used prices – but they are all over the place.
Now the opinion part (!) – the point of most 3.0 builds is not to build a ‘cheap’ engine but to build something the ‘right’ way. Right is always in the eye (and wallet) of the beholder. A good example is where to start with a block – I can sleeve a 2.5 out to 104mm drop in a 3.0 crank and you have a 3.0 bottom end that will accept a 2.5 head and its pretty strong stuff. Would it be better to start with a 3.0 block…yes, there are several features of the 3.0 family of blocks that are desirable – raise block floor (stronger) windage holes between cylinders and piston oilers in the 968 block. All this raises the cost a fair amount and is not strictly needed to make 400 rwhp – but it is the better way. You have to make decisions on what you want.
Here is my recipe for the ‘budget’ minded 3.0 turbo –
Start with a 2.5 engine ($500 for a used one)
Sleeve it to 104mm ($2800 plus shipping)
Head rebuild ($600 – guess at replacing springs)
Bearings / gaskets and hardware ($850)
Front end parts (belts/roller/pump) ($700)
Turbo $1K - 2k (that gives you a range of choices – could be as low as $1k)
Engine management ($600 - $4k – big range, lots of choices)
So there you have it – the cheap side is just over $6k for the DIY set up. Lots of work to DIY.
You can get it to $10k very quickly with a couple of options…up to $15k to take DIY out of the picture….up to $20k to have ‘state of the art’ work…
If I understand that the original poster will be doing all the work then the only ‘custom’ parts that are really needed (for the minimum build cost) are the pistons and some chips. Everything else can be off the shelf stuff. The price for the off the shelf parts is up to the builder – how cheap and resourceful can he be? I could quote the parts of used prices – but they are all over the place.
Now the opinion part (!) – the point of most 3.0 builds is not to build a ‘cheap’ engine but to build something the ‘right’ way. Right is always in the eye (and wallet) of the beholder. A good example is where to start with a block – I can sleeve a 2.5 out to 104mm drop in a 3.0 crank and you have a 3.0 bottom end that will accept a 2.5 head and its pretty strong stuff. Would it be better to start with a 3.0 block…yes, there are several features of the 3.0 family of blocks that are desirable – raise block floor (stronger) windage holes between cylinders and piston oilers in the 968 block. All this raises the cost a fair amount and is not strictly needed to make 400 rwhp – but it is the better way. You have to make decisions on what you want.
Here is my recipe for the ‘budget’ minded 3.0 turbo –
Start with a 2.5 engine ($500 for a used one)
Sleeve it to 104mm ($2800 plus shipping)
Head rebuild ($600 – guess at replacing springs)
Bearings / gaskets and hardware ($850)
Front end parts (belts/roller/pump) ($700)
Turbo $1K - 2k (that gives you a range of choices – could be as low as $1k)
Engine management ($600 - $4k – big range, lots of choices)
So there you have it – the cheap side is just over $6k for the DIY set up. Lots of work to DIY.
You can get it to $10k very quickly with a couple of options…up to $15k to take DIY out of the picture….up to $20k to have ‘state of the art’ work…
M73, you have a PM.
Last edited by Darwantae951; 08-28-2009 at 12:39 PM.
08-28-2009, 02:11 PM
#19
08-28-2009, 03:37 PM
#21
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If you want to get the most out of it (by being stupid like me) then you'll also need an intercooler, intake, headers, true 3" + exhaust, oil cooling, water cooling, thermal coatings, ...... plus a whole other handful of items that have been sitting on your parts shelf for a couple years that makes you wonder what the hell you were thinking by starting the project as your wife eyeballs an upgraded ring for her 10th anniversary that you can't afford and she doesn't necessarily deserve but she knows she's got you firmly by the ***** while you stare at your now 60K+ 951 that you push around the garage to sweep underneath it and talk about how bad *** your car will be when it's finally done.........
08-28-2009, 03:39 PM
#22
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
I should have NEVER used the word cheap..... Its the only word in a post anyone sees
I'm not looking for a "budget" build. As said above, there is a wide variety of prices for an equally wide variety of parts. I just want a general build cost .... if $15k to $20k is what it would take then good. From what I've read your posts already, I don't need any "special" parts. I'd still like to know what would be better to use. A 2.7 head, or the 3.0 head?
I used the word "cheap" to see if I could build a 3.0L turbo for the same price, or less, as swapping in an LS2.
I'm not looking for a "budget" build. As said above, there is a wide variety of prices for an equally wide variety of parts. I just want a general build cost .... if $15k to $20k is what it would take then good. From what I've read your posts already, I don't need any "special" parts. I'd still like to know what would be better to use. A 2.7 head, or the 3.0 head?
I used the word "cheap" to see if I could build a 3.0L turbo for the same price, or less, as swapping in an LS2.
08-28-2009, 03:42 PM
#23
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
That will get you a base long block + core charges. So basically using lindsey it's a 10K build (if you start off with a 3.0L block & a 2.7L head) then you have to get a turbo, clutch, WP/Rollers/ MAF, injectors, chip, fuel supply.
If you want to get the most out of it (by being stupid like me) then you'll also need an intercooler, intake, headers, true 3" + exhaust, oil cooling, water cooling, thermal coatings, ...... plus a whole other handful of items that have been sitting on your parts shelf for a couple years that makes you wonder what the hell you were thinking by starting the project as your wife eyeballs an upgraded ring for her 10th anniversary that you can't afford and she doesn't necessarily deserve but she knows she's got you firmly by the ***** while you stare at your now 60K+ 951 that you push around the garage to sweep underneath it and talk about how bad *** your car will be when it's finally done.........
If you want to get the most out of it (by being stupid like me) then you'll also need an intercooler, intake, headers, true 3" + exhaust, oil cooling, water cooling, thermal coatings, ...... plus a whole other handful of items that have been sitting on your parts shelf for a couple years that makes you wonder what the hell you were thinking by starting the project as your wife eyeballs an upgraded ring for her 10th anniversary that you can't afford and she doesn't necessarily deserve but she knows she's got you firmly by the ***** while you stare at your now 60K+ 951 that you push around the garage to sweep underneath it and talk about how bad *** your car will be when it's finally done.........
..... nothin but truth
08-28-2009, 04:16 PM
#24
Race Car
the head IMo would depend on what you a are after. The 8v at 400 hp will be more than enough and will offer lower end TQ. The 16 v would be better served for a track car IMO. Of course the turbo selection could very this a great degree.
For that $$ though I would still do the LS
. I have noticed a few high level car owners, that have switched over, if that tells you anything.
For that $$ though I would still do the LS
. I have noticed a few high level car owners, that have switched over, if that tells you anything.
08-28-2009, 04:16 PM
#25
Race Car
the head IMo would depend on what you a are after. The 8v at 400 hp will be more than enough and will offer lower end TQ. The 16 v would be better served for a track car IMO. Of course the turbo selection could very this a great degree.
For that $$ though I would still do the LS. I have noticed a few high level car owners, that have switched over, if that tells you anything.
For that $$ though I would still do the LS
. I have noticed a few high level car owners, that have switched over, if that tells you anything.
08-28-2009, 06:21 PM
#26
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the head IMo would depend on what you a are after. The 8v at 400 hp will be more than enough and will offer lower end TQ. The 16 v would be better served for a track car IMO. Of course the turbo selection could very this a great degree.
For that $$ though I would still do the LS. I have noticed a few high level car owners, that have switched over, if that tells you anything.
For that $$ though I would still do the LS
. I have noticed a few high level car owners, that have switched over, if that tells you anything.
08-28-2009, 06:43 PM
#28
Rennlist Member
When you say what would be 'better' out of an 8v or 16v, well neither is better in some ways because the 8v will allow you to get to 400whp. The 'better' part of the 16v is it's capacity to outflow the 8v but if you don't need it, then it's not 'better' for you. Only introduces a lot more cost.
You haven't mentioned what use the car is for? Only DD or is it a road/track car, or??? Remember with 400whp you will quite likely have to spend some money on improving it's brakes and handling too.
The really nice thing about the extra 500cc is the torque or 'grunt' off the line and out of corners. You can leave it in a higher gear as well.
I will be interested in what my mechanic Sean / JET951 comes up with in his efforts to turbo a spare S2 motor we have. Here's the intake. https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...e-arrived.html
You haven't mentioned what use the car is for? Only DD or is it a road/track car, or??? Remember with 400whp you will quite likely have to spend some money on improving it's brakes and handling too.
The really nice thing about the extra 500cc is the torque or 'grunt' off the line and out of corners. You can leave it in a higher gear as well.
I will be interested in what my mechanic Sean / JET951 comes up with in his efforts to turbo a spare S2 motor we have. Here's the intake. https://rennlist.com/forums/944-turb...e-arrived.html
08-28-2009, 07:23 PM
#29
Nordschleife Master
Thread Starter
An LS engine only adds 70lbs from a turbo engine.
My car will be 90% DD and 10% track/auto-x/DE. I also have the suspension, brakes, and Trans. already sorted (Meaning, I already know what I'm doing with them). The engine is the only thing I'm having trouble deciding on.
If a 16v flows more, doesn't that mean it makes power easier (less boost)? For reliability, I'm wanting to keep it around 1bar. Not only do I not want to be working on the car every tine I drive it (Other than the normal 944 maint.), but I want it to last me 100k miles +. I only want to do this swap once.
My car will be 90% DD and 10% track/auto-x/DE. I also have the suspension, brakes, and Trans. already sorted (Meaning, I already know what I'm doing with them). The engine is the only thing I'm having trouble deciding on.
If a 16v flows more, doesn't that mean it makes power easier (less boost)? For reliability, I'm wanting to keep it around 1bar. Not only do I not want to be working on the car every tine I drive it (Other than the normal 944 maint.), but I want it to last me 100k miles +. I only want to do this swap once.
08-28-2009, 07:47 PM
#30
Rennlist Member
Getting 400hp to the wheels at 1bar will take some doing from what I have read. I wouldn't be wed to the actual number given your criteria. That is, if you want something that will be reliable and give you a real kick, it may not be 400whp that you need to have. I'm not sure if you've been in a 350whp car? Perhaps you can achieve everything you want from this? Just saying. The extra 8valves will improve things but perhaps this won't be realised below 5000rpm. If you're going to need to rev it to 7000rpm+ to take advantage of the superior head and yet it's still primarily a street car, then again, maybe you don't need to go a twin cam?
I would save the money by using an 8v and put that into better components for the build overall. You will get 400whp (not at 1 bar), but you can make the motor very strong along the way. Bigger headstuds, maybe a deckplate, modifications to the sump..there are things you can do to increase reliability and still not spend what you may have to do an affordable 16v.
You can probably get John to make you a kit for a 3L 8v inc turbo that will give you all you need. Otherwise get a standalone which are cheaper to purchase than 10 years ago.
I would save the money by using an 8v and put that into better components for the build overall. You will get 400whp (not at 1 bar), but you can make the motor very strong along the way. Bigger headstuds, maybe a deckplate, modifications to the sump..there are things you can do to increase reliability and still not spend what you may have to do an affordable 16v.
You can probably get John to make you a kit for a 3L 8v inc turbo that will give you all you need. Otherwise get a standalone which are cheaper to purchase than 10 years ago.